Couldn't listen to much of this, you put me off at the beginning when you said people who ask 'why' are asking the wrong questions. I think someone in a traumatic situation is entitled to ask any question they want. I've seen people thank God for saving a dog in the Oklahoma tornado. Why save a dog and not someone's child. To say this is the wrong question is patronising and insulting to the parents asking the same question. If by thinking the deaths of these people is part of some greater plan and someone gets comfort from believing that then fine. But everyone has the right to grieve and get through life the best they can. Everyone's feelings are valid. If a mother cries out in the pain of her grief "Why", I can't believe anyone would try and justify the situation by telling her she's asking the wrong question. Everyone is different and will react in different ways. please respect that. I'm in no way dismissing the person who sees value in the situation and gets comfort from that. Its great if you can do that, but please respect everyone's right to deal with pain in their own way. If that's what they think and feel then its a valid question.
Your attitude pushes people away. When someone is hurting or grieving they need people around who accept how they are feeling and who are willing to help them get through it. Someone who understand a little of what they're going through is a great help. it's not at all helpful to be around people with the attitude towards you that what you are thinking and feeling is wrong. There is a process people need to be allowed to go through to get to the other side of grief, pain and trauma. Asking why for many is a big part of that process. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand people who are hurting.
My cousins wife was killed in a car accident then four months later their baby died of meningitis. Try telling him when he asks "why did God let this happen" that he's asking the wrong question and should change it to "how can I use this" He is totally devastated and can see no good in loosing the two most precious people in his world. He wants nothing to do with a God that allows this to happen. He is fully entitled to grieve and feel angry and to feel like this. He really doesn't feel like getting closer to a God that could have helped and saved at least one of them but chose not to. People are not robots able to switch off to feelings and emotions. He needs time to go through the grieving process. He's not a self pitying kind of guy who wollows. He's normal and human. He knows life goes on and he's putting a lot of effort into doing that but he can't thank God for the pain and devastation he allowed to happen. He had his heart ripped out of him.
What do I say to my cousin ? He told me he cant believe in God anymore because he can't believe in a God that chooses to save some and not others. He doesn't believe there is a God anymore. He says its all just random, these things happen and no one has any control over any of it, so he's getting on with life his way now.
Have listened to this a couple of times now - so good. I like the way you only quote people who have really suffered themselves so can speak from a place of reality, and then you open up Paul's words to the church, also spoken from a place of knowing suffering first hand. Yes its OK to ask the big questions, the how AND the why, but in the end the only answer that can truly satisfy is Jesus Jesus Jesus, who has bought our souls with his own suffering. Maybe its only as we suffer that we can truly walk more closely with Him, and maybe, as we walk with him in our suffering, we can experience true joy.
I know a lot of people will hate me for saying this but Jesus didn't really suffer for that long compared to some. If you look at him he had quite a good life. He grew up well loved by his family and friends so would have been quite secure in who he was. His father had secure employment, probably his own business as a carpenter so the family were probably reasonably secure financially with a reasonably respectable position in the society they lived in. Jesus as a young man had lots of friends and followers, quite a charismatic young man whose wisdom was sought and respected. On the whole it would seem Jesus had a good life and celebrity status. His death was a bit grim but not unique in his suffering as crucifixion wasn't uncommon in those days and I doubt very much he would have been the first person in history to be wrongly convicted and sentenced to death. He certainly wasn't the last. OK, so there was a period where he felt abandoned by God (his father) but that was brief. He knew he was loved by his family and friends. I don't mean to sound hard but compared to the ongoing suffering of some peoples lives and the pain and hardship they continually endure, Jesus suffering was quite mild in comparison. I feel sorry for him as I would anyone who endured crucifixion or horrendous pain, but some innocent people endure ongoing torture in their lives for weeks, months, sometimes years. They suffer far more than Jesus ever did and no one cares. I feel far more for them. Jesus knew what he was doing, he was a martyr who died for his cause, he was fully aware of the consequences and chose to do what he did. Some people have no choice in what they endure. Slaves receiving continual beatings and kept in awful conditions. People all over the world starving to death. Children being beaten, sold into slavery and raped.People suffering alone in the world. When I look at the lives of some, Jesus had it cushy in comparison. This God is a God for those with cushy lives with hiccups pretending to know what suffering is when in reality, he has no idea what true suffering is really like.
Well I don't hate you for saying that. I think you are asking some very good questions for which there are no easy answers. But I don't think God "allows" or "disallows" these things to happen - I don't think these terrible things were ever part of God's plan. I think that these things happen as a consequence of man's disharmony with God, and that God aches with us when we hurt - I think he totally understands our pain, and longs for everything to be put right again, and he promises that one day it WILL all be put right, but not without first allowing us (as in ALL of us) to choose to live in harmony with him, or not. I don't think it's about the "measure" of suffering, if it is possible to measure suffering, that makes the suffering of Jesus so amazing and life/hope giving if we are open to it (and yes, others have suffered horrendously,including your cousin - although I don't think we can fully comprehend the greatness of Christ's suffering - and not just on the cross, but afterwards when he actually was separated from God, even though he WAS God - how are we to understand that? But it was enough pain for "darkness to come over the whole land" for three hours, according to Mark 15). What is so amazing about Jesus' suffering is that he was/is GOD, and yet, as you say, he chose, not just to be a martyr, but to become a man in the first place, he who had ALL THINGS, and in whom there was NO WRONG, and to suffer FOR US - for you, and me. This was no random event (and yes, events like what happened to your cousin are very random) - this was an act of supreme sacrifice and love and humility on the part of God, creator of the whole universe. I think that is what makes this so remarkable and believable - who would have made a story up like that? Doesn't take away the pain, but believing does give tremendous hope. Why not settle for that?
Jill, TBH I'm not sure if I believe there is a God or that Jesus was the son of God so all I can do is look at the facts as I see them. For example, People say God answers their prayers and often its about quite trivial every day matters and often its things that could happen anyway so is it God or just life in general and what do you say to someone like my cousin. Some half whit at his church was going on to him about God answering their prayers in buying a house. They would have gone and looked at the house and bought it anyway with or without God. How do you think this made my cousin feel when his prayers about his daughters meningitis went unanswered and she died. Some people have no common sense over such things and are very insensitive. The whole "who knows why God saves some and not others, doesn't cut it when its your baby daughter and wife who have just died. So is this God cruel and heartless or perhaps he doesn't care. Or is it that there is no God and its all just random. For the first 1000 years the only church was the catholic church and they also wrote the first bible. The catholic church is not exactly well known for it's honesty and reliability. They translated scripture and decided what went into the bible. That doesn't give me confidence that the bible was inspired by a God and not man. Also, most people believed in a God of some kind back in those days. Most nations had their Gods that they worshipped and looked to for help and protection. These people probably did truly believe that what they were writing was from a God (their God) but just because they believed it doesn't make it true. There have been many Gods throughout history, are any of them real ? The story of Jesus,his death and resurrection is a very clever way of gaining control over people. The OT ruled by fear, by Gods wrath and punishment. The NT changes tactics as how better to get people to obey than to make them eternally grateful. People are always eternally grateful to someone who saves their lives. So God comes to earth in the form of his son and dies to save peoples from his own punishment of hell by offering eternal life for those that dedicate their lives to serving and worshiping him. This sounds very much like a Lord of the rings type novel to me that wouldn't be out of place amongst the thriller section on the fiction shelves. It certainly sounds more like fiction than fact. The plot thickens as anyone who fails to believe is accused of not having enough faith, thus making people determined to believe in order to prove their strength of character and faith.
I see no evidence of a God so struggle to believe there is one. I don't see a belief in him changing anyone's lives. Buddha was around 450 years before Jesus and had a similar message about how to treat people and how to love, Buddha goes deeper into finding ones inner strength in order to cope with those tough situations in life and how to change your attitude to change your life. With this in mind I ask the question, 'what difference does God make to peoples lives that's unique to him ?' Is there anything that makes Christians different that would suggest that their God is real and working in their lives that only they can be or do because of their God. You say believing gives tremendous hope. Why not settle for that. Hope for what ? I don't need hope as life for me is good and my cousin, well, he had hope in his prayers to save his daughter but that hope didn't do any good so he stopped believing in false hope and is getting on with life. I don't want to settle for something that might or might not be real. I trust in reality. Im not a gambler, I wont put my trust in something that may or may not answer prayers. A heavenly father that stands back and watches while people suffer, a heaven and hell that may or may not exist. I see no evidence that any Gods are real so I put my trust into reality.
Good on you, Anon. Sounds like you're happy with your view of reality. I became convinced that the Bible was more than just a story book when I saw the difference it made to people's lives around me and to my own when I plugged in to church and handed over my life to God. And when I read and understood just a little bit about who Jesus is and what he did, I felt that I had to respond. For me, that response had to be all or nothing, and I haven't regretted that decision, to opt for all, and I still want to know more. But that's a choice and a matter of faith and nothing I say will convince you to do the same unless you want to. The hope I have is NOT that God will help me with all my little decisions and make all my problems go away - he gave me choices and a brain, and crap still happens - but rather my hope is that this whole world and everything in it will one day be put right, through us, in partnership with him, and I for one want to be part of that action. The reality I have is that God is, and I daily trust in that, and sometimes I can actually feel his loving presence, and other times it's just a quiet confidence that he is there walking through it all with me, and that all is well with my soul. I can't ask for much more. It is truly wonderful having God to thank for all the good stuff and to trust with all the not so good stuff - it is like a big weight off my shoulders. There is plenty of evidence if you look, but you have to be willing to open your eyes. I wish you well.
Well Jill, I tried going to church and "plugging in" but as an outsider and not a member go the "in crowd" or any crowd for that matter, I never got to experience God at church. People there talked it up but it seemed to actually be on the receiving end or to be allowed to be involved in any of it you needed to have the right connections. So I guess church is a pot luck and knowing the right people which didn't inspire me to think God had much if anything to do with it. I to am an all or nothing person so I did actually put everything I had into trying to understand, build a relationship with God and to be involved. I guess you would have to know me properly and know my story to be able to understand what it meant to me and how much effort I put in as well as why I can no longer believe there is a god. Just as I would have had to got to know people at church well enough and know who they are and their stories to be able to see God in them and their lives. That didn't happen. So now I'm very sceptical. I found more loving kindness in people who don't believe in God than I ever did in anyone at church. I found acceptance, encouragement and support from people who don't believe in God bet not in the people at the church. So I'm left with the conclusion its people who make a difference in life, its our own hard work and determination that gets us where we are. I to want the world to be a better place and am willing to do whatever I can to help make that happen. Wanting to help people reach their potential in a positive way to help create a better world and to promote tolerance and understanding of each other isn't unique to God or Christians. So I see no evidence of the existence of God or something unique to him to suggest he is real and an all loving creator.
Couldn't listen to much of this, you put me off at the beginning when you said people who ask 'why' are asking the wrong questions. I think someone in a traumatic situation is entitled to ask any question they want.
ReplyDeleteI've seen people thank God for saving a dog in the Oklahoma tornado. Why save a dog and not someone's child. To say this is the wrong question is patronising and insulting to the parents asking the same question.
If by thinking the deaths of these people is part of some greater plan and someone gets comfort from believing that then fine. But everyone has the right to grieve and get through life the best they can. Everyone's feelings are valid. If a mother cries out in the pain of her grief "Why", I can't believe anyone would try and justify the situation by telling her she's asking the wrong question.
Everyone is different and will react in different ways. please respect that.
I'm in no way dismissing the person who sees value in the situation and gets comfort from that. Its great if you can do that, but please respect everyone's right to deal with pain in their own way. If that's what they think and feel then its a valid question.
Your attitude pushes people away. When someone is hurting or grieving they need people around who accept how they are feeling and who are willing to help them get through it. Someone who understand a little of what they're going through is a great help. it's not at all helpful to be around people with the attitude towards you that what you are thinking and feeling is wrong. There is a process people need to be allowed to go through to get to the other side of grief, pain and trauma. Asking why for many is a big part of that process. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand people who are hurting.
ReplyDeleteMy cousins wife was killed in a car accident then four months later their baby died of meningitis. Try telling him when he asks "why did God let this happen" that he's asking the wrong question and should change it to "how can I use this" He is totally devastated and can see no good in loosing the two most precious people in his world. He wants nothing to do with a God that allows this to happen. He is fully entitled to grieve and feel angry and to feel like this. He really doesn't feel like getting closer to a God that could have helped and saved at least one of them but chose not to. People are not robots able to switch off to feelings and emotions. He needs time to go through the grieving process. He's not a self pitying kind of guy who wollows. He's normal and human. He knows life goes on and he's putting a lot of effort into doing that but he can't thank God for the pain and devastation he allowed to happen. He had his heart ripped out of him.
ReplyDeleteWhat do I say to my cousin ?
ReplyDeleteHe told me he cant believe in God anymore because he can't believe in a God that chooses to save some and not others. He doesn't believe there is a God anymore. He says its all just random, these things happen and no one has any control over any of it, so he's getting on with life his way now.
Have listened to this a couple of times now - so good. I like the way you only quote people who have really suffered themselves so can speak from a place of reality, and then you open up Paul's words to the church, also spoken from a place of knowing suffering first hand. Yes its OK to ask the big questions, the how AND the why, but in the end the only answer that can truly satisfy is Jesus Jesus Jesus, who has bought our souls with his own suffering. Maybe its only as we suffer that we can truly walk more closely with Him, and maybe, as we walk with him in our suffering, we can experience true joy.
ReplyDeleteI know a lot of people will hate me for saying this but Jesus didn't really suffer for that long compared to some. If you look at him he had quite a good life. He grew up well loved by his family and friends so would have been quite secure in who he was. His father had secure employment, probably his own business as a carpenter so the family were probably reasonably secure financially with a reasonably respectable position in the society they lived in. Jesus as a young man had lots of friends and followers, quite a charismatic young man whose wisdom was sought and respected. On the whole it would seem Jesus had a good life and celebrity status. His death was a bit grim but not unique in his suffering as crucifixion wasn't uncommon in those days and I doubt very much he would have been the first person in history to be wrongly convicted and sentenced to death. He certainly wasn't the last. OK, so there was a period where he felt abandoned by God (his father) but that was brief. He knew he was loved by his family and friends. I don't mean to sound hard but compared to the ongoing suffering of some peoples lives and the pain and hardship they continually endure, Jesus suffering was quite mild in comparison.
ReplyDeleteI feel sorry for him as I would anyone who endured crucifixion or horrendous pain, but some innocent people endure ongoing torture in their lives for weeks, months, sometimes years. They suffer far more than Jesus ever did and no one cares. I feel far more for them. Jesus knew what he was doing, he was a martyr who died for his cause, he was fully aware of the consequences and chose to do what he did. Some people have no choice in what they endure. Slaves receiving continual beatings and kept in awful conditions. People all over the world starving to death. Children being beaten, sold into slavery and raped.People suffering alone in the world. When I look at the lives of some, Jesus had it cushy in comparison. This God is a God for those with cushy lives with hiccups pretending to know what suffering is when in reality, he has no idea what true suffering is really like.
Well I don't hate you for saying that. I think you are asking some very good questions for which there are no easy answers. But I don't think God "allows" or "disallows" these things to happen - I don't think these terrible things were ever part of God's plan. I think that these things happen as a consequence of man's disharmony with God, and that God aches with us when we hurt - I think he totally understands our pain, and longs for everything to be put right again, and he promises that one day it WILL all be put right, but not without first allowing us (as in ALL of us) to choose to live in harmony with him, or not. I don't think it's about the "measure" of suffering, if it is possible to measure suffering, that makes the suffering of Jesus so amazing and life/hope giving if we are open to it (and yes, others have suffered horrendously,including your cousin - although I don't think we can fully comprehend the greatness of Christ's suffering - and not just on the cross, but afterwards when he actually was separated from God, even though he WAS God - how are we to understand that? But it was enough pain for "darkness to come over the whole land" for three hours, according to Mark 15). What is so amazing about Jesus' suffering is that he was/is GOD, and yet, as you say, he chose, not just to be a martyr, but to become a man in the first place, he who had ALL THINGS, and in whom there was NO WRONG, and to suffer FOR US - for you, and me. This was no random event (and yes, events like what happened to your cousin are very random) - this was an act of supreme sacrifice and love and humility on the part of God, creator of the whole universe. I think that is what makes this so remarkable and believable - who would have made a story up like that? Doesn't take away the pain, but believing does give tremendous hope. Why not settle for that?
ReplyDeleteJill, TBH I'm not sure if I believe there is a God or that Jesus was the son of God so all I can do is look at the facts as I see them. For example, People say God answers their prayers and often its about quite trivial every day matters and often its things that could happen anyway so is it God or just life in general and what do you say to someone like my cousin. Some half whit at his church was going on to him about God answering their prayers in buying a house. They would have gone and looked at the house and bought it anyway with or without God. How do you think this made my cousin feel when his prayers about his daughters meningitis went unanswered and she died. Some people have no common sense over such things and are very insensitive. The whole "who knows why God saves some and not others, doesn't cut it when its your baby daughter and wife who have just died. So is this God cruel and heartless or perhaps he doesn't care. Or is it that there is no God and its all just random.
ReplyDeleteFor the first 1000 years the only church was the catholic church and they also wrote the first bible. The catholic church is not exactly well known for it's honesty and reliability. They translated scripture and decided what went into the bible. That doesn't give me confidence that the bible was inspired by a God and not man. Also, most people believed in a God of some kind back in those days. Most nations had their Gods that they worshipped and looked to for help and protection. These people probably did truly believe that what they were writing was from a God (their God) but just because they believed it doesn't make it true. There have been many Gods throughout history, are any of them real ?
The story of Jesus,his death and resurrection is a very clever way of gaining control over people. The OT ruled by fear, by Gods wrath and punishment. The NT changes tactics as how better to get people to obey than to make them eternally grateful. People are always eternally grateful to someone who saves their lives. So God comes to earth in the form of his son and dies to save peoples from his own punishment of hell by offering eternal life for those that dedicate their lives to serving and worshiping him.
This sounds very much like a Lord of the rings type novel to me that wouldn't be out of place amongst the thriller section on the fiction shelves. It certainly sounds more like fiction than fact. The plot thickens as anyone who fails to believe is accused of not having enough faith, thus making people determined to believe in order to prove their strength of character and faith.
I see no evidence of a God so struggle to believe there is one. I don't see a belief in him changing anyone's lives. Buddha was around 450 years before Jesus and had a similar message about how to treat people and how to love, Buddha goes deeper into finding ones inner strength in order to cope with those tough situations in life and how to change your attitude to change your life. With this in mind I ask the question, 'what difference does God make to peoples lives that's unique to him ?' Is there anything that makes Christians different that would suggest that their God is real and working in their lives that only they can be or do because of their God.
You say believing gives tremendous hope. Why not settle for that. Hope for what ?
I don't need hope as life for me is good and my cousin, well, he had hope in his prayers to save his daughter but that hope didn't do any good so he stopped believing in false hope and is getting on with life.
I don't want to settle for something that might or might not be real. I trust in reality. Im not a gambler, I wont put my trust in something that may or may not answer prayers. A heavenly father that stands back and watches while people suffer, a heaven and hell that may or may not exist.
I see no evidence that any Gods are real so I put my trust into reality.
Good on you, Anon. Sounds like you're happy with your view of reality. I became convinced that the Bible was more than just a story book when I saw the difference it made to people's lives around me and to my own when I plugged in to church and handed over my life to God. And when I read and understood just a little bit about who Jesus is and what he did, I felt that I had to respond. For me, that response had to be all or nothing, and I haven't regretted that decision, to opt for all, and I still want to know more. But that's a choice and a matter of faith and nothing I say will convince you to do the same unless you want to. The hope I have is NOT that God will help me with all my little decisions and make all my problems go away - he gave me choices and a brain, and crap still happens - but rather my hope is that this whole world and everything in it will one day be put right, through us, in partnership with him, and I for one want to be part of that action. The reality I have is that God is, and I daily trust in that, and sometimes I can actually feel his loving presence, and other times it's just a quiet confidence that he is there walking through it all with me, and that all is well with my soul. I can't ask for much more. It is truly wonderful having God to thank for all the good stuff and to trust with all the not so good stuff - it is like a big weight off my shoulders. There is plenty of evidence if you look, but you have to be willing to open your eyes. I wish you well.
ReplyDeleteWell Jill, I tried going to church and "plugging in" but as an outsider and not a member go the "in crowd" or any crowd for that matter, I never got to experience God at church. People there talked it up but it seemed to actually be on the receiving end or to be allowed to be involved in any of it you needed to have the right connections. So I guess church is a pot luck and knowing the right people which didn't inspire me to think God had much if anything to do with it.
ReplyDeleteI to am an all or nothing person so I did actually put everything I had into trying to understand, build a relationship with God and to be involved. I guess you would have to know me properly and know my story to be able to understand what it meant to me and how much effort I put in as well as why I can no longer believe there is a god. Just as I would have had to got to know people at church well enough and know who they are and their stories to be able to see God in them and their lives. That didn't happen. So now I'm very sceptical. I found more loving kindness in people who don't believe in God than I ever did in anyone at church. I found acceptance, encouragement and support from people who don't believe in God bet not in the people at the church. So I'm left with the conclusion its people who make a difference in life, its our own hard work and determination that gets us where we are. I to want the world to be a better place and am willing to do whatever I can to help make that happen. Wanting to help people reach their potential in a positive way to help create a better world and to promote tolerance and understanding of each other isn't unique to God or Christians. So I see no evidence of the existence of God or something unique to him to suggest he is real and an all loving creator.
Jill, I'm interested to know how the bible and church changed your life and the lives of those around you ?
ReplyDeleteDoesn't matter anymore Jill. Your silence speaks volumes.
ReplyDeleteIm no longer looking for answers. or God.