This man is Mark McConnell. He teaches theology at Laidlaw College (the better college). He is from Scotland and was subjected to racism on Sunday night because of this. He's a good guy and brought to us a great discussion of the Trinity and all of life, talking about the mythological god that we create in our distrust of God himself.
Well worth the listen, an well worth checking out the theologians he mentions too.
Included at the beginning is a bit of a story from Sarah Davidson who is part of our community, and we really appreciate her sharing too - some really insightful stuff in there!
I have so many questions about this.. The first is about Jesus coming down the mountain to us. I have heard it preached before that Jesus comes in search of us. Then others preach that bad is in the world because we turn away from God. Which is it ? Does he come after us like lost sheep or is it up to us to find him ? Why doesn't he try to meet me half way when I came looking?
ReplyDeleteTalking about the Garden of Eden. It seems to me more like the the knowledge Adam found when he ate the apple was the knowledge of Gods wrath and that was the evil. Yes Adam hid because he was afraid of God and rightly so. God was angry because Adam had disobeyed him and needed to be punished. God wasn't kind loving and forgiving to Adam. He promised him death and banished him from the Garden. Of course Adan was afraid when he discovered another side to God. If Jesus is more about switching on a light in our hearts then why can't he find my light switch ?
The clip from the film...
If God has a plan for all of us then did he plan for Adam to eat the apple ? If he doesn't then why do so many people preach that he does ?
Relationship...
There was no relationship between the Father, Son and HS before creation. There was no Jesus then, he came along much later.
If the church is supposed to represent Jesus and relationships then why is it so useless at doing so. I'm originally from UK and felt very much a minority with some resentment to my heritage from some members of the population. I know the UK as things to answer to in history but feel that's past and wasn't and isn't me and what I'm about. People can't build harmonious futures by holding on to the grudges of history. I felt that churches were selective about who they dignify in God. It seemed to me more about popularity than anything else.
I didn't like the way the preacher took away the botanist pride in what he did. It sounded to me as though the botanist was full of passion and enthusiasm in a caring about the future of the world kind of way rather than boastful. Although I wasn't there so can't say. It's not a crime to be passionate about what one spends their life doing. The botanist was sharing what he loves in the same way the preacher was sharing his passion for what he has devoted his life to.
I don't really agree that the botanist passion had to come from God ? Why ? Why couldn't the man just have developed a passion by himself as he was growing up? Perhaps he noticed an unusual plant like a Venus fly trap or something as a kid and if started from there. No offence but just because a Christian believes the mans passion came from God doesn't automatically make it so. I think he sould have said that Christians believe this instead of saying they recognise it as there is no actual proof. But then all religions preach what they say, think and believe as fact. They can't all be right, if in fact any are.
I have passions in life but they stem from my experiences not a God.
Maybe somewhere in the world there are descendants of Adam who are passionate about talking about Gods wrath and unforgiveness as that's what Adam experienced. Who knows ?
Fact is we can't prove any of its real, we have to eventually go with reason and our hearts equally in my opinion.
I think the thing that put me off Christianity the most was being constantly put down. My self esteem has never been great at the best of times but being told constantly that I couldn't do this, wasn't allowed to do that, not being encouraged, coupled with being told none of us are worthy, only in Gods strength, only by Gods grace. It was the one place I could guarantee to have any idea of self worth knocked out of me by people who didn't know or care to know me. Either that or be totally ignored. I don't like that Christianity does that to people. It tells us we are servants or even slaves and should be grateful.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a proud person by any means, but people do sometimes need to feel valued and that they are doing something right. They need to feel recognised as individuals not just a number in a flock sheep. That's if they are to be happy and thrive rather than simply exist. I feel that's something the church I went to really didn't understand.
I did have faith once but no one from the church seemed to care when I started loosing it. If there was an enemy tempting me away then I didn't feel anyone from the churched cared enough about me to help me fight this battle. They seemed quite happy to be rid of me. I don't blame them that much looking back. I went from being a happy, helpful, positive person to being miserable and critical. They were happy to be rid of me. Of course I didn't know anyone there very well, so they never really got to know the good side of me or why I was the way I was. They made me feel inferior so I always felt I had to justify myself to them. There started a slippery slide downwards. It there was a Satan he had no problem finding my Achilles heel and using it to his advantage. Of course, theirs lack of caring towards me played me right into his hands as I was lonely and feeling rejected and an easy target for anyone willing to show me a little attention. I was drawn towards the first person who showed not only interest in my but also willing to help give me purpose and encouragement in life. I had been looking for this in God but fell way short. When I saw what I needed elsewhere in life I grabbed it with both hands and ran to it. I was depressed and in need of a helping hand in a positive direction so I took it.
ReplyDeleteWas this just life or was it a spiritual battle. At one time I would have said it was Satan wreaking my life and leading me away. Would I have been better equipped to fight him off if I had had a supportive church community behind me? Or is it solely down to the individual to ward him off.
Or is it all just religious poppycock that only happened in the movies.
Does any of it matter anyway ?
Who Knows ?
The fact that my life went so far down when I tried to dedicate it to God doesn't help me to believe in him, specially when the big helping hand that helped pull me back up and gave me a good purpose in life came from a person that doesn't believe in him and led me to a belief that doesn't include him and in some ways conflicts with him. I can't allow myself to go that far down again so am not willing ever repeat putting my life in Gods hands and devote myself to him again. Was the reason I went down because there was nothing there in the first place. If I give my life to nothing then I end up nothing. Was that it. I have to work through this some how and find an answer that satisfies me. I don't like the way I'm sometimes pulled around by the uncertainty of it all. I have to make up my mind one way or another and stick with it for good.
ReplyDeleteIs Satan a metaphor if so then is Jesus a metaphor. He could well be as there is no scripture written by him. As someone sent from God who is so important and God inspiring people to write the bible, then I would have thought the best person to write it would have been Jesus as he would have been able to be more correct in his written teachings than anyone.
ReplyDeleteQuestions, questions, questions. Where does one find answers.
Silence speaks volumes
ReplyDeleteThere is no Satan, There is no God, keep on being you and carry on in your own strength.
If your waiting for divine inspiration or intervention you will wait forever and waste your life. There is nothing here for you,lack of response proves it.
Lack of response proves people have busy lives =P I will check this site and respond to you guys, but on my time, as the replies require quite a lot of it.
ReplyDeleteAs I've noted previously, most of our community are active on the 'Windsor Park Young Adults Community' Facebook page. Your comments would be more readily answered there - which I'm happy to give you guys if that's what you want. It's not because you're being ignored, it's because this simply isn't the hub of communication for our community.
Atheists Unite:
It's an intellectually dishonest statement to say there is no God. You would either need infinite knowledge or be God yourself to know that (arguably the same thing). The most you can say is 'i don't believe in God', which is no more than I can say, 'I do believe in God'.
Such a profound claim like, 'there is no God,' cannot be brushed away in a sentence. It needs to be supported.
Anonymous:
"I didn't like the way the preacher took away the botanist pride in what he did. It sounded to me as though the botanist was full of passion and enthusiasm in a caring about the future of the world kind of way rather than boastful. Although I wasn't there so can't say. It's not a crime to be passionate about what one spends their life doing. The botanist was sharing what he loves in the same way the preacher was sharing his passion for what he has devoted his life to.
I don't really agree that the botanist passion had to come from God ? Why ? Why couldn't the man just have developed a passion by himself as he was growing up?"
If a maximally-being such as God exists (and I adhere that's He's logical), then He created everything which definitely includes plants and the environment. Seeing as they would be His creation, He would have a strong passion for them as is illustrated in the Bible. If He also created humans in His image and people in turn had an enthusiasm for the environment, this passion would indeed have come from God. As would have their existence.
Why would that take away from the botanist's credit and pride? Essentially he'd be working hand-in-hand with the creator of galaxies and stars to bring about a more beautiful and safe environment for people to live. Isn't that what the botanist wants? It's also what the God of the Bible shows He wants. Such a thing doesn't take away from the botanist's passion, but I would say brings it to an apex (as you would be working with the designer of the Universe). That to me is a beautiful thing.
"Maybe somewhere in the world there are descendants of Adam who are passionate about talking about Gods wrath and unforgiveness as that's what Adam experienced. Who knows?"
Is that really how Adam experienced God? I'd encourage you to do some more digging, as that certainly doesn't represent an accurate theological standing of the situation.
Ben, I think it is true to say that the statement, "There is no God." is very problematic for our atheist friends, however I wouldn't equate that statement with the statement, "There is a God." since the epistemology or the knowledge that can be acquired regarding those two positions is quite different.
ReplyDeleteHere's why - As you know, a person can know that something exists through direct knowledge which doesn't need to be inferred through other truths. ie. Knowing God exists directly, through that truth being revealed to them by God. Or they can know that something exists through evidence and reason. In the case of God many of these evidences would be indirect due to the nature of God. Direct knowledge would give us, at least, a level of confidence equivalent to the confidence we have in believing that the external world exists or that the past is real. Evidence and reason would provide us with a more subjective level of confidence and act as a further warrant of belief for the person with direct knowledge.
On the other hand the person who doesn't believe there is a God can not appeal to firsthand knowledge of there being no God as you rightly point out. So while they can't point to evidence for non-existence, they can point to apparent inconsistencies between there being a God of certain qualities (many of which they will not be aware of or fully understand) and the world being the way they experience it to be. However they would have to show that these inconsistencies demonstrate the impossibility of God existing to justify their position. The atheist could also try to show that the arguments for God's existence are unsound or poor arguments. However this would still not show that it is impossible that God exists which again would not justify the atheist position. Furthermore, neither approach would do anything to to show that a believers direct knowledge of God is incorrect. Perhaps the best an unbeliever could say with intellectual honesty is that it is unlikely that God exists, and even then they would have to give good reasons why they believe such a thing if they were to properly respond to the many arguments for the existence of God.
Therefore a person who does know God directly and/or is absolutely convinced by the evidence and reasoning for God is justified in saying, "There is a God." While an unbeliever can, at most, say "I am not aware of God." To say, "I think it is unlikely that God exists." with intellectual honesty they would have to have to show why the arguments for God fail. To say, "God does not exist." can't be justified.
PS. If a person is saying what they believe, I think using the word, 'believe' is redundant.
Hello Anonymous person who wrote the first post :)
ReplyDeleteThose are awesome questions and I would love to engage in dialoging about them with you. At Young Adults please make yourself known to me and lets chat!
Hello second Anonymous person :)
Thank you for your vulnerability! Did my talk specifically make you feel like that? I remember feeling very similar a couple of years ago. I am keen to chat as well - not to say that this is not a useful place to nut things out, I just find it hard to write. You can find me on FB and I hear the cafe at Windsor has good coffee and I am yet to try it....
Love from Sarah
I remember as a four year old child waking up on Christmas Eve hearing something on the roof and being convinced it was Father Christmas as this was the logical explanation, indeed I was expecting him as I was promised he would come that night, so of course it was obvious to me the noise on the roof was him. But just because I had been told he was real and the fact their being something making the noise and the fact I believed it ti be him, I wanted it to be Father Christmas. For many years, even after I was too old to believe anymore, there was something inside me that questioned as that night to me had a magical feel to it. Of course the magic was all in my imagination, my subconscious trying to convince me this was real. Truth is, no matter how much I wanted it to be real, or how mich I was convinced it was real, the only person it was real to was myself. I did tell people and my young cousins were impressed and also believed it to be real for a few years too.
ReplyDeleteThe onus is not on me to prove God unreal as I don't belong to an organisation that claims there are no Gods. There are no organisations going into schools teaching children there are no Gods and Atheists don't boycott Christmas, Easter, Ramadan, Diwali and so on. We don't even complain about the national anthem but rather quietly not sing it as it doesn't apply to us. We ignore all the religious dates the Callander revolves around and tell our children that its only what some people believe. Just as I'm sure you would if as the population in NZ is changing and if dates such as Ramadan, Chinese New Year and Diwali became celebrated national holidays. You may have grown up in a family that takes a belief in God as fact, This is very much a multicultural country and not everyone shares your beliefs. If your religious holidays are being forced onto people then I think it's more up to you to prove the reality of your beliefs. In the words of Richard Dawking, Christians deny all other Gods but their own. I'm just adding one more to that list.
Hi Sarah, anonymous 2 here.
ReplyDeleteYour talk made me question why my life fell apart so much when I decided to become a Christian and dedicate it to God. Being vulnerable as an anonymous person is safe. Being vulnerable in a way that leaves me open to being judged, criticised and condemned is another. I can do without that thanks. I was comfortable with who I am before o went to church but talk about we are all guilty, all sinners and but for the grace of God, unsettled me. Being told that Jesus died because of my sin was difficult for me. I found it difficult to cope with being responsible for someone else's death. Things from my past make me sensitive to others pain. If I am guilty, I would rather take responsibility for my own actions and face my own punishment thanks. I don't want anyone being punished on my behalf. It doesn't make me feel grateful, it makes me feel responsible for Jesus death. A feeling that's extremely difficult to cope with. I feeling that holds me down in shame and guilt. The only way to be free would be to take my own punishment for my own actions. So I want to know what it is I'm guilty of, who accuses me and why. What is my punishment and what is my crime. Most importantly, is any of it real ?
I'm not happy to meet with you or go anywhere near a church. People judge me for thinking like this. Popular conclusions people have come to is that I'm evil, possessed or insane. Not labels I'm happy to accept. Not that I believe in labelling people at all.
Anonymous 2
ReplyDeleteWell done for waking up to what religion is all about. You are to be asking such questions. Religion encourages the romantic idea that Jesus loved everyone so much that he died for their sins. So go praise and worship and spread the good news.
What they don't encourage is people like you, people who stop and ask " what are my sins ? " and " what have I personally done that was so bad that Jesus had to die in my place" questions like " does God make the punishment fit the crime or is he to harsh".
Punishment of death, anyone's death is in my opinion a serious matter indeed, you are perfectly within your right to question the issues as after all, you stand to face serious charges when you die if you get it wrong.
You would have thought that Jesus would have been very clear and given a simple explanation that would leave everyone without a doubt, exactly what the rules on this are and the consequences. In fact, as Jesus was the son of God, you would have thought as he was God, then he would have written scripture himself instead of leaving it to near mortals to do years after he has gone. I don't know about you, but there is no way I could remember exactly what someone told me ten, twenty, years ago. I would only be able to give you the gist of what someone told me a month ago.
I find it very difficult to believe that God inspired the bible to be written but he/his son, never saw fit to actually write part of it. What a wasted opportunity. Perhaps it's because God like the bible was invented by man, for man.
And man thought what better way to get everyone to obey than to make them eternally grateful to Jesus for saving their lives.
But what and who is he saving them from in the first place !? Oh yes, Gods harsh punishment.
Gulable lambs to the slaughter to be taken in by such a story.
Anonymous 2. None of it is real. It was all invented to control people. You are right to open your eyes and question it all.
Religion has a lot to answer to for the anguish it caused you in trying to convince you that you are a wicked simmer and that Jesus died because we are all sinners. Making you feel responsible for his death was an awful thing for them to do. Shame on them. Welcome to the truth, its just a fairy tale.
Atheists Unite:
ReplyDelete"I remember as a four year old child waking up on Christmas Eve hearing something on the roof and being convinced it was Father Christmas as this was the logical explanation."
You're comparing something with no evidence (Santa) to something of evidence (God). The same goes for 'fairy tale'. It's a logically inconsistent comparing these with God.
"The onus is not on me to prove God unreal as I don't belong to an organisation that claims there are no Gods."
Whether you're in an organisation or not is irrelevant - you claimed God does not exist. The onus is therefore your's to explain as you made the claim in absolute. You still have not given reasons as to why God doesn't exist.
"Making you feel responsible for his death was an awful thing for them to do. Shame on them."
She never said they made her feel responsible (and if they did, it's certainly not biblical). It's not that 'everyone is a wicked sinner,' as that simply isn't true. We're born with fallacies. Though it isn't hard to see that humanity needs rescuing. We can be a very corrupt, selfish and devious species.
"Welcome to the truth"
Atheism entails you believe the following things.
1) The universe doesn't have a cause (it would certainly seem that it does)
2) Life is ultimately meaningless and therefore has no value
I know you don't necessarily believe all this, but by definition atheism demands it. History's greatest atheistic mind (arguably), Friedrich Nietzsche, came to the same conclusion. It's the catch to what seems like a shiny package; the fine print in tiny writing at the bottom of a contract. It's also one of my main issues with atheism and why I couldn't be one myself.
Ben, there is no evidence to prove God exists so you saying there is a God is as much the truth as me saying there are fairies, trolls and big foot. No one has ever proved any do exist and no one has ever proven they don't. So saying there is no God is as valid as saying there is. It's all a question of what one believes.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 2 said he/she found it difficult being told that Jesus died because of his/her sin and that this made him/her? Feel guilty.
I agree there are some awful people out there but not sure I would say humanity needs rescuing. some people need teaching but people need to work at doing it and changing things themselves rather than being rescued. I know some pretty good people out there who do a pretty good job of being good role models for humanity. It's just a pitty these people quietly go about life mostly unrecognised and that the media tends to highlight the bad stuff. Indeed throughout history religion has done its fair share of damage in people's lives, from burning innocent people accused of whitchcraft, the KKK burning black people in the US, rituals that insist on a blood sacrifice, the extreme Muslims we hear about in the news, the holocaust, many wars. I personally think the world would be a much better place without religion being another reason to segregate and prejudice people giving them something else to fight over. It might bring small groups of people together but being a group with different beliefs to another group is a way of dividing people so not good. The whole of the OT has God dividing the Israelites from the rest of the world as his chosen people and other nations are called the enemy and there is war and killing because of this. So your God didn't do much in the way of encouraging word peace and a coming together of nations. Wonder why he had such a personality change when Jesus came along. Perhaps it was just another writers perspective. It certainly gives weight to the evidence the bible and God are man made.
Atheism entails you believe the following things.
1) The universe doesn't have a cause (it would certainly seem that it does)
2) Life is ultimately meaningless and therefore has no value
Why do you think the universe needs a cause and what makes you think it has one ?
You say life is meaningless and of no value from an atheist perspective and say its one of your main issues with atheism and why you couldn't be one.
I don't understand why you need a higher authority to give who you are meaning and value. Why do you need to think there must be more ?
I can understand people with awful lives hoping there is more to life than what they have now, or people who feel they have wasted their lives wishing they had done more or made better choices. As an atheist I believe this is it, so I live accordingly. I don't need more than what I have now or to be more than who I am now, I'm content with who i am and for this to be it. Why the need for more ?