Amanda unpacks all the references to homosexuality in the bible and what that seems to point to. All this is held in tension with her own convictions and journey. Handled really sensitively and a good indication of where the pastoral team have landed on this as we wrestled with it as a community.
please note: Amanda had nothing to do with the above photo and will probably hurt me for it.
I liked most of this.
ReplyDeleteI listened to this as I have some very dear friends who are Gay. Im not gay myself although I was tempted on a couple of occasions when I was desperate to feel loved and to feel the closeness and warmth of another being in my life. Having it offered by a person of the same sex was a temptation. As one of life's misfits, the end touched me. I particularly liked the bit about us all being equal and all being his children. The feeling of equality is something I have little experience of. I felt the tears prick my eyes and wanted to run up to God and hug him. I wanted to tell him how much I have missed him and wanted to be with him again.
Then I remembered all the hurt and pain that came with him. The question about the people who are gay by nature. Did God create them this way. If the act of a Gay person is a sin, does this mean for them to reconcile with God they must stay celibate. Are they to be denied something so precious to us. The intimacy and closeness of a loving partner. I don't just mean sex as sex is by no means the only part or the biggest part of a relationship. I mean the loving warmth and affection, companionship and security we get from being loved by a partner. I think it's cruel to create people who are attracted to the same sex then tell them being together in a sexual way is wrong. If God is a creator of man and created people to be like this then I think him cruel and he didn't create us equally but created some to be loved better than others. Love is something everyone needs, acceptance is something everyone needs. Once again I struggle with wether or not there is a God and if so, is he kind and loving to everyone or did he create some to suffer more than others. Is he kind to some and cruel to others. I don't know...
I do like that Amanda says to get to know people as individuals and to learn about them. From my experience its pretty annoying being told how to live your life by a bunch of people who have no idea who you are and what life's been like living in your shoes. You can do a lot of damage to people by telling how they should be living their lives when you have no idea what their life is about and what it is they need and the affect your words and actions have On them. A lot of damage indeed.
ReplyDeletePardon me but I have a quick question...
ReplyDeleteWhen church people talk about community, do they mean just the church community or the whole community they live in. When they talk about neighbour, do they mean the people next door up to a few doors away or do the mean the neighbourhood they live in. its never been clear to me. It mostly seems to me it means the church community and the immediate neighbour next door. To me it seems as though the church people in my community prefer to keep pretty much to themselves which can sort of divide them from the general community which can put up barriers on both sides.
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure it's the church community they talk about. I went to church for a short while to explore what Christianity was about and it was definitely a community you had to be accepted into to before you could become part of it. A lot liked to stick within the Christian community as one Christians were often seen as a threat that may try to tempt them away. A bit like the three monkeys, "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" or now and then someone nay go and target a few none Christians to try to convert them. I was a target to be converted but as I'm not the sort of person that just accepts what I'm told but wants to know why and looks from different angles and has to decide for myself. Not all my questions were welcome and my challenging what I was told rather than just accepting was seen as me being the enemy in some way. Whatever, I was definitely not accepted as part of their community and became someone to be avoided for my lack of faith. I didn't feel any love or warmth towards me that's for sure so I'm not in a hurry to go to a church again. I poke around online and ask my questions but as I'm not praising and saying how much I love Jesus because I haven't decided wether or not I can believe and accept it all, and I'm unknown, not part of their community. Like you, my questions and comments go mostly unanswered. I really bother these days and have given up I guess.
I read that God comes in search of us. I went to church looking for him and didn't find him, so if he wants me, he can come looking for me now. That's if he's real of corse. I don't see any evidence of him so its looking less and less like there is a God to me. Hope you find your answers somewhere.
I've lived all my life quite happily without religion or going to church so don't see the need for it. It wasn't a good experience when I went to church so see no reason to ever go again. Surly if there is a God who created me,then he will have the ability to communicate with me in a way that would leave me with no doubt he is real. If he loves me as much a Christians say he loves people and the consequences for not knowing him are so bad, then it would be pretty important to him that he make himself known and understood to everyone, including me. As this doesn't happen then it only adds to my belief he isn't there. If he knew everyone as intimately as people say, and there are people who communicate with him, (the church was full of people who claimed to be led by the Holy Spirit or who hear him) if this was the case and he knows me so well, then why couldn't he communicate to me through one of these people something that would make me believe in him ?
ReplyDeleteHi FiFi,
ReplyDeleteI so get where you are coming from. I just got told to read the bible and my questions would be answered. This was so annoying because for the bible to provide me with answers would mean I would have to believe it to be what they said in the first place. Bit of a catch 22. If I'm not sure God exists then I'm not satisfied the bible is his word either, so I would have to believe in God to believe the bible is his word.
I think it's pretty much accepted these days the bible is full of metaphors so not to be taken literally. I have lots of problems with the bible. For example, I believe more in evolution rather than the creation story. If the creation story is a metaphor and not real then what about the story of Adam eating the apple. If that is not real then there is no original sin so no need for Jesus and redemption.
With so much evidence for evolution I simply can't believe the creation story, without the creation story no Adam and Eve, no sin, no redemption required.
Christians naively think people will just accept that it's real simply because its in the bible. They don't realise the bible is under question. It's an important part of life if your a believer so I think I'm quite within my right to question authenticity, indeed only a fool would give his life over on someone else's here say without first satisfying for himself it's authenticity and deciding if its the right thing to do. Blindly following a crowd can be dangerous.
Anonymous, i got annoyed when my questions were answered with totally wrong presumptions about me such as I couldn't find God because I hadn't invited him into my life. Well I did invite him and nothing happened. Then being told God couldn't change me because I wasn't open to being changed.
ReplyDeleteThis was wrong guess work on their part. I did pray for God to reveal himself to me and told him I was open to whatever he had in store for me, and I meant it. How dare keep putting it back onto me without even asking had I tried. They presumed so much like this, it became really annoying and just convinced me they didn't know what they were talking about because they got so much wrong about me how on earth could I trust and believe they knew what they were on about. I think it was all just scripted and they had learnt the scrip and stuck to that without any clue or thought of their own. If the script didn't work for you then tough because there were no alternative. Bit of a one size is supposed to fit all.
I think they meant well in their own way but were unconvincing and didn't inspire me to believe there was any credible answers or wisdom amongst them. I felt I was part of a production line of possible converts and the more difficult ones like me got weeded out so they could concentrate on the more accepting, plyable minds. They went for quantity, people willing to become another sheep. I was too much effort. At first it narked me that I wasn't worth the effort of saving if the consequences of not being saved were as bad as they said. It was a little hurtful that they didn't consider me worthy of being saved and were willing to let me go so easily. My immediate thoughts were they didn't care about me after all. I was disappointed I wasn't worth the effort involved. Not so bothered anymore, the topic is more intriguing than inspiring these days.
I shall find my own answers to life's questions. I don't need their help.
Anonymous and anonymous (bit confusing for a while but I worked out there are two of you)
ReplyDeleteIf you were disappointed because you thought they didn't care enough to try to save you then I think you were with the wrong people. Christians put Jesus/God first and people second. It's in their commandments to do so. If you want people who care about people it's humanitarians you need to look for as they put people first
Hey Anonymous (plural) and Fifi,
ReplyDeleteWhen The Bible says 'neighbours', it's referring to humanity at large. Everyone. 'Neighbour' is simply a metaphor for all people.
The churches you guys have experienced don't sound awfully pleasant. Though you certainly don't, or shouldn't need to grow up in church to be accepted. Many of my friends didn't grow up in the church and yet they're accepted and recognised like it never mattered - and it doesn't. It shouldn't.
Annoymous: yes the Bible does have many metaphors, but those only make up a small portion. Much of it is history (accurate at that), poetry, proverbs, first-hand accounts and letters.
I personally don't take the creation story as a historical account (many Christians I know don't) - nor was it meant to be. The early church leaders didn't take it literally either. Rather it's an intelligently written story designed to reveal the character of God. Why would it be a historical account? It was written for the Israelites c 500 BC. Why would God write a scientific explanation of the universe for a people who have no understanding biology and physics.
Therefore I would also ask, why are evolution and perhaps even science separate from God? The two do not contradict but compliment one another. I highly recommend you watch this debate ('has science buried God?') I've linked between Richard Dawkins (biologist) and John Lennox (mathematician and philosopher). They articulate it better than I ever could:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5vwpzMMLzZI#t=234s
Also Fifi: it isn't a commandment to put God first and people second. I think you're talking about the ten commandments, but that's not what it's referring to. To love God means to love people, as His heart turns mine towards the hearts of people and how I can help them. In turn to love people also means to love God, since that's where His heart is.
I'm sorry you guys don't get many replies on this site. It's not for lack of care. Most people in our community communicate on Facebook. If you guys would like, I can add you our FB page (Windsor Park Young Adult Communities) so you're questions can be more engaged with - 'cause they're definitely important questions. If that's what you guys want, just tell me your names and I'll see to it that you're added :) Promise I wont' be anything weird with them =P
Thanks Ben, but I closed my FB account a little while ago after it automatically downloaded photos from my phone without my permission and kept changing it privacy setting without telling me. I only found out because a complete stranger had commented on a photo of mine.
ReplyDeleteI thought that Jesus had said that the first and most important commandment was to love God with all your heart and strength and the second was to love your neighbour as yourself. Thus waning that God comes before people.
I get that the Old Testament is really the history of the Jewish people and that the split came with Jesus as they didn't accept him as the messiah. So the Old Testament should really be seen through Jewish eyes in my opinion as its their bible. As the Jews didn't recognise Jesus as Christ this leaves me with questions.
Firstly, if they didn't recognise their God in Jesus can they be trusted to have accurately understood God in the past when it came to writing their scripture. Someone who doesn't know their God well enough to recognise him when he transforms to human flesh and blood and stands before them speaking to them can't be trusted to write scripture correctly in my opinion. So did the Jews get it right in the past when conveying Gods word and will to the world if they got it so wrong about Jesus. Going by books like Deuteronomy and Leviticus with all killing and it being ok to beat slaves, stone people to death and so on. I would say this is very much the man made rules of the people of that time and not at all from a God who loves and cares about people and certainly doesn't convey a message of love and forgiveness that Jesus talks about.
Had to split it in two as reply was too long to publish.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, as God was originally the God of the Jews, what if they were right and Jesus was not Christ, if they are to be relied upon to have written and got the OT correct then should they be trusted to have got it right about Jesus as well.
But then there is the question of other Gods. The bible acknowledges there are other Gods and accepts them. It doesn't say they don't exist just that the God of the bible is the most powerful and if you worship him then to forsake all other Gods. The very fact that God commands his people worship no other God but him is an acknowledgment of other Gods. If God is the creator where did the other Gods come from, why would God create other Gods for people to worship besides himself and as competition to himself then punish people for worshipping them.
It's all so contradictory. It doesn't make sense. Yes Jesus came along with a better message than Gods severe punishment of the OT but then so did other philosophers 400-500 years before him so even Jesus philosophy of how to love and treat each other well wasn't unique to him just that he claimed to be this son of the God his people worshipped but then if you see your god as a creator of humanity then it's possible to say he created you so is your Heavenly Father. Any Christian could claim God as their father.
I also think if a person is going to dedicate their life to something like this then they are wise to make sure they understand and believe what it's all about. I'm cautious of an insistence of blind faith as it makes me question why?
I wouldn't buy a house or a car without having a reasonable inspection done first so I wouldn't buy in and invest with my life if I'm not satisfied its all as it claims to be and is right for me. I haven't yet touched on my thoughts and questions about God insisting on a blood sacrifice and what sin requires this and Jesus being that sacrifice. That's a whole different issue.
I'm not totally convinced its all real.
I was a member of the WP FB group once as i tried that church, but my comments got deleted because they weren't positive and encouraging so can't see the point if its censored, I'm not in a hurry to join the group again, I'm more of a twit that tweets these days anyway. But thanks for the offer Ben.
ReplyDeleteI came across this poem today and felt like posting it here for some reason. It's not for me, but its for someone. Don't know who, hope no one minds.
ReplyDeleteOh teachers listen closely
For this you need to know
My future rests right in your palm
I need you as I grow
My destiny is yours to shape
By words you choose to use
Encourage me, tell me I’m great
Your power do not abuse
Believe in me and I will shine
I will not let you down
Give up on me and let me fail
My choice will be to drown
Please teach me all you know my friend
Do not give up and leave
And I will thrive because I knew
In me you did believe
I have the talent to succeed
But sometimes feel lost
Please help me so I find my way
No matter what the cost
Don’t leave me on the tough days
I need to know you’ll stay
For you help me to grow and learn
And assure me i’m o.k.
Support me, guide me, and teach me
My fate is up to you
For with your words I’ll fail or win
It is up to you you’ll see
Please don’t leave nor write me off
I am worthy of your time
I promise I’ll not fail you
To give up would be a crime
My future is up to you you’ll see
In you I do believe
I will succeed and fulfil my dreams
If you walk with me
In order for me to succeed
I can not walk alone
Don’t give up on me and walk away
My emotions will turn to stone
Teachers listen closely
I need your help today
Help now and I promise
I will make you proud one day
FiFi, I did feel a bit like that when I felt like part of Christian conversion production line who was thrown out as a reject because I wasn't being converted quick enough. I hated that in the end it was suggested that I was just not willing to accept and comply. Perhaps that was true but unless it all makes sense and is credible to me I just can't believe in it. I don't think I ever will to be honest. I did what they said and prayed about it but that just made me feel like I was trying to convince myself. Like if you go through the motions on a daily basis then eventually it just becomes part of a routine and I will eventually just forget to question and so accept. Or a bit like meditation in that if you reinforce it in your mind by praying because you would get used to talking to God by prayer so reinforce his reality by doing so. Either way, I t didn't feel like it made him real because he was real but rather like a brainwashing scenario. I stopped halfway through the process which seemed to cause problems as I was sort of half brainwashed which left my brain in a state of confusion for a while. It wasn't good.
ReplyDeleteGuess I'm still in that state of confusion, that's why I'm here. Have to make the break sooner or later though. Can't go on in limbo about it all forever. I don't think it's a healthy state to be in.
Something struck me today as to why I don't believe in the bible.
ReplyDeleteA friend at work was telling a story about an experience she had on holiday. She was credible to me, I understood her reasoning and where she was coming from. I had no reason to doubt her or what she was saying. Why ? Because I know her, it trust her, I know she wouldn't make up such a story and because I know her can see why the story unfolded as it did. She is an honest person who should have nothing to gain from making up such a story. She added a little artistic expression here and there that made the story funny and amusing for our enjoyment.
I don't have the same level of trust for stories I read in the media or for the speeches politicians give. On the whole it's generally accepted that just as my friend added a little artistic expression to make the story entertaining so does the media to put its point of view across. We are all taught not to believe everything we read or hear as truths often get distorted, sometimes lost to promote someone's product, cause, point of view.
To me the bible is no more trustworthy than the religious teachings of any other religion. Christianity has no more meaning than Hinduism. There is no personal touch to link it to me, no friend who I trust sharing their experience to bring it to life to me as something real and credible in people's lives. It's a book written by strangers hundreds of years ago, presented to me by people who are also strangers. I went to church and listened to strangers preach, saw a couple of DVD clips of more strangers talking. It was like going to the theatre or watching a movie. It wasn't reality to me. I communicate on the Internet with more strangers from time to time. It's almost like religion is a virtual existence. There is nothing real or solid about it. It's all hear say from people I don't know. It's difficult to take something serious when its not a real tangible part of your life. It's like being engrossed in a novel. You read it so its part of life but its not reality.
I think if I was ever going to believe there is a God it would have to be real to me. This God would have to touch my life in such a way that it would bring him to life to me. I have no idea how that would be possible but something would need to happen to take the bible from being in the legends and myths section of my library to the reality shelves.
How did this get so way off topic, lol.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point about why believe the bible to be credible and to believe in Christianity over any other religion. Hindus for example have around 3 million Gods so what makes the God of the bible any different if any exist at all. Who is to say which God is correct or even who's version of said God. There are so many different denominations of Christianity all squabbling over who's right, who's to say any are.
I think that, if any were correct and had Devine influence over the world, then wouldn't that truth stand out. The fact that the Catholic Church imprisoned Galileo for saying the earth was round and that some Christian denominations try to outlaw evolution because they conflict with the bible doesn't install me with confidence to believe it. The Catholic Church had original scripture translated decided what went into the bible. This doesn't install me with any confidence in its credibility at all as the Catholic Church has a reputation for being quite corrupt over the years. It's not just the Catholics. People have used religion to suit their purpose throughout history.
I'm also tired of all this fighting in the world and people being segregated by religion. Religious communities stick together even though there are also divisions within their own community.
I think religion on the whole is divisive. The closer I looked the more arguments I saw about how to interpret the bible and who was right. When I looked at the Bible Belt in the Deep South of the US, I actually saw quite a lot of hatred, intolerance and prejudice directed towards themselves in the form of self-righteousness. It was quite scary, an extreme was Westbro Baptist Church. If there is a loving God, I saw very little of him in the people that claimed to represent him.
I agree with you anonymous, if there is a God that created this world then I see no evidence of him in it.
If I create a garden then I'm responsible for looking after it. If I abandon it to look after itself, I can't then complain about the state it's in. If there is a creator then he didn't make good enough provisions for looking after his creation in my opinion.
I was watching Richard Dawking on YouTube yesterday, I tend to agree more with him. The world got taken over by a God Delusion.
Sorry people but I found no credibility in religion.
"I thought that Jesus had said that the first and most important commandment was to love God with all your heart and strength and the second was to love your neighbour as yourself. Thus waning that God comes before people."
ReplyDeleteNot in the sense you're implying. Jesus simply said there are two great commandments, the second being to love people, but it's not insinuating what you've previously shared - to 'convert' people, even if you don't care about the person 'cause you need to put God first. That certainly isn't what it means. When Jesus said this it was mind-blowing to the Jews. They were use to a myriad of laws, then Jesus brought it down to two things, 'love God, love people'. The point was not to arbitrarily put God above people. It's also rather fake, and lacks the genuineness that Jesus demonstrated.
"I get that the Old Testament is really the history of the Jewish people and that the split came with Jesus as they didn't accept him as the messiah. So the Old Testament should really be seen through Jewish eyes in my opinion as its their bible. As the Jews didn't recognise Jesus as Christ this leaves me with questions."
Seeing as the Old Testament foreshadows Jesus quite clearly, He's seen as the climax of Jewish history and the completion of all that happened in Jewish history. Isaiah 53 (confirmed in the dead sea scrolls and written c 500 years before Christ) predicts Jesus and His death quite blatantly:
Who has believed what he has heard from us?[a]
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected[b] by men;
a man of sorrows,[c] and acquainted with[d] grief;[e]
and as one from whom men hide their faces[f]
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;[g]
when his soul makes[h] an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see[i] and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,[j]
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,[k]
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
Nor is this the only prediction of Jesus in the Old Testament. This is significantly strong evidence not only for God, but the God of the Bible.
"But then there is the question of other Gods. The bible acknowledges there are other Gods and accepts them. It doesn't say they don't exist just that the God of the bible is the most powerful and if you worship him then to forsake all other Gods. The very fact that God commands his people worship no other God but him is an acknowledgment of other Gods."
ReplyDeleteThe Bible doesn't acknowledge other gods exist so much as it does recognise people worship them. It simply refers to them as 'gods' because that's what the people knew them as - it's not accepting their reality.
"It's all so contradictory. It doesn't make sense. Yes Jesus came along with a better message than Gods severe punishment of the OT but then so did other philosophers 400-500 years before him so even Jesus philosophy of how to love and treat each other well wasn't unique to him just that he claimed to be this son of the God"
Ancient religions (and still today) held that the only way to redeem yourself from wrong was to work your way to perfection. Either through sacrifice, service (think Hercules) or good deeds. What Jesus said was entirely counter-cultural (and remains so) to the idea of self-earned...religion. As a result of what happened on the cross, Jesus offered what he called 'grace' to everyone - that your connection to God, your perfection and home in Heaven wasn't earned but was now a gift directly from God. There was no requirement on your part to meet - that's what made/makes Jesus so unique. Christians still wrestle with the concept today. Christianity is the only religion (for lack of a better word) that offers such a thing.
It was easy to write the story of Jesus to fit with the story of Isaiah as Isaiah himself drew on the previous exodus of Moses when writing. Surly if the bible didn't accept other Gods as reality it would say so, I can't remember ever reading anywhere in the bible it clearly stating these Gods are not real. God claims to be more powerful than other Gods suggesting he is comparing himself to them. How can he compare himself to something that doesn't exist ? A do admit not to being an expert on the bible so if you can tell me where to look, it would help.
ReplyDeleteNot sure I agree with anyone or anything that insists on striving for perfection. Who's concept of perfection is correct ?
I'm happy to set realistic goals, to try to be a better person, to be a useful part of the world I live in, to be a cog to help keep it turning. I'm not keen on other people setting my goals for me, this is my life for me to live the way I see fit. This doesn't mean I don't look around and get inspiration from what I see in others, but I'm not them, I have my own passions and dreams that inspire me. Passion and inspiration is the fuel that keeps people going, couple this with love and encouragement and its a pretty potent mix to boost them towards achieving great things and overcoming many obstacles in life. Trying to force someone to fulfil your ideals is not only robbing them of fulfilling their dreams but turns their life into drudgery as there is no passion pulling them towards their inspiration.
Who is to say what perfection is. Acceptable morality has changed over the years. In biblical times it was morally acceptable to not only own slaves but also to beat them. There are still a few people in this world who live like that. It was morally acceptable in the biblical days to stone adulterers to death, to rape a woman and marry her. Your Bible that is said to be God inspired has these written down as its law. Was your God ok with this being passed as law for his people to abide by.
If your God is to be seen as a kind loving God with good morals who treats all equally then one has to say these laws were man made by the people of the time and didn't come from God. So which parts of the bible come from God and which parts come from God ?
Meant to say, which parts come from God and which parts come from man ?
ReplyDeleteWhy would God make me one way then try to change me because I don't meet his standards. It's a bit like someone who tries to change their partner into the person they want them to be. It's not fair and no one is ever happy. You should find someone who is what you want them to be. If God doesn't like who I am, he should have made me different. He should have made people what he wanted them to be. I'm an ordinary person living a decent life. If that's not good enough for him then tough because who I am is good enough for me.
ReplyDeleteI used to have people in my life who made me feel that who I am isn't good enough and I ended up believing it. I'm older and wiser now and won't let anyone make me feel like that again. I don't need to be anyone's version of perfect because who I an is good enough.