What is Love – billboards, popular magazines, television, films, books all reveal the various dynamics of romantic love – it's on display everywhere. These ideals are prised. There is certainly value in romantic love, and my question is whether I am the only one who is questioning whether this is what Love is? Is there more? Is love this narrow conception?
As a young Christian I'm also confronted with another type of Love rather than this narrow ideal. There is this dichotomy that I'm confronted with every day – What is Love? What is true Love?
As a philosophy, modern society expresses Love with 'feelings', the 'feelings of romanticism'. This involves a feeling of possessiveness and exclusivity. But even society acknowledges family Love which is different again - our children, closeness, bonds that bind, blood is thicker than water …. These are valid and worthy.
As a Christian, I am faced with a different kind of Love, this encourages me to go beyond ….. Loving God becomes a priority, as is loving our neighbour (means anyone else). Partiality is gone and within this context is a distinct lack of exclusivity – it's a bit of a shock to a new Christian what is involved with this commandment to Love.
One person's example of Love
The apostle James says true religion, that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. (James 1 verse 27).
Catholic Priest Henri Nouwen is an author whom I read with interest. His life inspires me, for after teaching at universities such as Yale and Harvard he dedicated his later life to care for people with disabilities.
Throughout his life he struggled with both depression and his sexuality but yet set an amazing example for others to follow of Christ like love and sacrifice. Does it make Nouwen any less loving, or less knowledgeable of love, that he was celibate? I would argue most certainly not.
In fact, I would say the love Nouwen had and gave to the poor and disabled was a kind of self sacrificial love that many people may never touch. It’s graceful in its unmerited favour in an age in which for some possessive and preferential love reigns supreme. To have compassion for the weak, the vulnerable, and the powerless, is in itself subversive and is a place where the light of Christ shines through.
In this matrix of love it is not the feeling that comes first. Nouwen didn’t care for the disabled because he fell in love with someone who was poor or disabled, no; love is the work of love. And the work of love is his life. The task is not to find a loveable object or person, but the task is to find the given object or person - loveable.
A theologian
A highly esteemed theologian Søren Kierkegaard had a great deal to say about Love.
“With respect to love we speak continually about perfection and the perfect person. With respect to love Christianity also speaks continually about perfection and the perfect person. Alas, but we men talk about finding the perfect person in order to love him. Christianity speaks about being the perfect person who limitlessly loves the person he sees.”
In my view, he seems to be saying that each of us should be working on ourselves instead of chasing the dream of the perfect object or person to love.
As none of us are perfect, there should be an inherent attempt to be a more loving person towards all – this is at least something we might be in a position to control and developed within ourselves.
The Scriptures certainly affirm that following Jesus Christ enables this endeavour to 'Love' which is aided by the Holy Spirit dwelling within each believer. For me therefore Love is of God, and pure love comes from God whether it is romantic love, family love, service to others Love or a more internal expression of Love in how we live our lives.
Question, if love is of God through the Holy Spirit then how come its not unique to Christians. Everyone loves in different forms. It's true it's often our experience of life that shapes this. For example, a person who's father dies of cancer has empathy for other cancer sufferers so may lovingly devote themselves to that cause. We as people have different passions that drive us. One example is an old aunty of mine who was a nurse and devoted part of her life to those needing help in Calcutta. Her passion to do so was driven by an orphan she met while traveling there who's plight she couldn't ignore so decided to do what she could to help because of the empathy she felt for the people. while there she met Mother Theresa. Her passion was driven not by empathy but Her belief in god as my aunty witnessed Mother Theresa leaving very sick, dying people on the streets, choosing only to help and treat those who agreed to convert to Catholicism.
ReplyDeleteI don't think pure love comes from any god, I think it comes from within and our motives. The love mother Theresa showed was conditional of conversion so therefore not pure. Mu Aunty has no faith in any god and is not keen on religion in general but the love she had came from her heart. I think love is inspired by many things and not really anything to do with god as his seems conditional to me.
The Christian claim is that all things came from God. The universe, galaxies, planets and people. It also claims humans are 'made in His image'. So if people are made from the mold of a loving God, and if this God indeed exists - then undoubtedly love comes from Him.
ReplyDeleteIt's important to remember that people aren't mirror-copies of God. We like to do our own thing. Loving people under condition of conversion, if that's indeed what Mother Teresa did, doesn't reflect the kind of God seen in the Bible. That would defeat much of the purpose of Christianity.
Hey Fifi! :) Nice you commented on my little blog thingy here. I think the advantage of Christianity is that it makes love ideally non preferential. You mentioned your example of your aunty, I guess what I would say to that is all people will have some way in which they can provide love to other people, and the nature of human beings is that some things will be brought before you rather than others. Or you will be passionate about some things rather than others etc, that's just human. If I can draw it out here with an example I found inspiring recently ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuxejhBOCOo ~ in this video a Christian high school cheers for the opposing team as they are in penitentiary. Why? I think it's an outworking of the ideal Jesus sets to love your neighbor as yourself (Mark 12:30-31 & Matthew 22:36-40). To extend grace to others in a weird way to people who most people would say probably may not deserve it (this is what grace is right? Love extended to those who don't deserve it). There is a really great book written by Larry Taunton called 'The Grace Effect' about his personal experiences in places without religion and Christianity in particular ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZxu7wJYOcc ~ he notices what a world without grace would look like as it's played out in a country without the influence of Christianity and grace. I don't think it's a given in society that without Christianity love for your neighbor in this impartial sense would remain. In fact, the ceasing of infanticide and the founding of hospitals came about from Christian influence. I think our motives can switch and change depending upon the ethos we put into our lives. Question as well, is the love you see Jesus display in the gospels conditional in the sense you mention? Because this is what I strive to emulate. And ironically the reason I wrote on this topic, and also the last one actually, is not because I feel I have got somewhere, but because I feel I haven't. I'm writing about it because I'm thinking about it and trying to be better at follow the example of Jesus to love as impartially as he also loved them.
ReplyDeleteCheers (and thank you for the response, feel free to reply again)
Peter
Hey guys, thanks for replying. Firstly a couple of questions for Ben. If we are made in Gods image and love because of this and because God created love. Does this mean God also hates and created hate? Also God or Jesus does put a condition on grace as just like Mother Theresa its only extended to those who agree to worship him.
ReplyDeletePeter, hmmm. It worries me when you talk about extending grace to those most would say probably don't deserve it. I don't like these kind of presumptions as it encourages people to believe its normal to believe many don't deserve it and many people are content with being normal and find it comforting to be so. I think this may encourage people to follow the crowd and be happy to generalise instead of getting to know who people are and why they do the things they do. It's not enough to judge people by their actions without first taking time to find out what causes someone to do what they do. Often actions are a reaction to something. Ingrained bad behaviour is often the result of bitterness caused by once being a victim of some kind. It's not usually the behaviour of a person from a stable, loving environment. If this is the case then as the bad behaviour may be the result of being a victim then as victims they are in need of much love and not only receive grace but in need of many examples of goodness to rewire their brains and undo the bad and create good in them.
If you study the teachings of Buddhism you will find remarkable similarity to the teachings of Jesus. Are hospitals really the result of the teachings of Jesus ? I haven't heard that before.
I repeat what I wrote to Ben. The grace of God is on the condition of worshiping him, so is conditional. I have a problem with this. I also have a problem with knowing and accepting just what God or Jesus is saving people from and why. I find this all very confusing as its. Gods punishment people are supposed to be saved from but I don't see what the average person has done that's so bad that they need punishing for in the first place. I personally find most people pretty kind, considerate, law abiding, likeable people. What's their crime that makes them deserve Gods wrath and what's Gods punishment to them they need saving from ?
"This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." 1 John 4:10.
ReplyDeleteThe distinctive thing about Christianity is his love for us is not conditional upon us. It's offered to us while we are still away from God, while we still don't love God back even.
"Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 5:7-8
I'm running out of time at the moment. So i'll reply a second time and flesh out what I just said a little bit later :)
I struggle with the atoning sacrifice for our sins. What has the average person done wrong that we need this atoning sacrifice in the first place.
ReplyDeleteIf I have committed such a crime then I would prefer to take responsibility for my own actions and receive any punishment for said crime myself. I just find the whole concept more like an over dramatic historical old drama rather than reality. I know things like burning witches at the stake was once real and it seems in some more barbaric cultures people are sometimes still stoned to death. These things are barbaric and the whole concept of someone being crucified for our sins is tight up with such atrocities. I seriously don't consider the minor mistakes of the average person warrants crucifixion of anyone or the alternative of being sentenced to hell as the alternative. It's rather the barbaric punishment of an ancient people.
I don't think such things are relevant in today's modern society. I can see why people like the idea of having a God to help them and some find it comforting to think there is something more powerful than themselves to fall back on. But the punishment and human sacrifice part of it is over the top for me and inappropriate in today's modern society. There have been many in history who have died for others and on a practical side most people if they knew their death would save many would be prepared to die for such a course simply on humanitarian grounds. I doubt there are many cowardly enough not to.
I don't mean to be offensive as I have tried to understand as the idea of a loving creator who watches over us and looks after us has to some a warm cozy appeal. I could accept the knowledge that people make their own choices as I'm pretty independent myself. But I don't agree with the tyrant part of it where said God hands out such harsh punishments all the time for what I see as totally invalid reasons. His biggest and main reason for such punishments is to not worship him. He is often portrayed as a loving father. Most parents encourage their children to be independent and take it for granted that although their offspring rarely show it, they are loved. This God is the opposite, he insists on being the focus of their lives and on being continually worshiped and obeyed. This is not how people that love you treat you. It's all just too over bearing and over reactive for me to be credible these days.
All this human sacrifice thing is too barbaric for me.
Couple of points Fifi.
DeleteFirstly, G.K. Chesterton said that although some people dispute original sin it is the only part of Christian Theology which can really be proved. I agree with him here. No matter how much you dream it is not so, the flawed nature of humanity is something which can be seen in the street. "The Christian admits the universe is manifold and even miscellaneous, just as the sane man knows he is complex. The sane man knows he has a touch of the beast, a touch of the devil, a touch of the saint, a touch of the citizen." But it seems the conception you are gunning for is quite simplistic, just as a madman is quite sure he is sane. The moral failures of human beings and the ills of the social world are obvious throughout over five thousand years of human history. Your ignoring a part of humanity, our capacity to do both good and bad, in your idealism of humanity it seems to me.
That would be a first point I think. Secondly, it has been eluded to by both Ben and me, but I just don't recognize your conception of God. Hell, I don't even seem to believe in the God you believe in either. In other words, the God you describe as handing out punishments all the time etc is just not the God I worship anyway. Which has to be a big problem in your critique because your just talking past us and is also outside everything we have written. The God I see displayed in Jesus is someone who is always for the outsider, not the insider. Just as in the story of the prodigal son (Luke 15: 11-32) he welcomes anyone into his arms. What you are describing sounds more like Islam, in which it is asserted that God loves not the unbelievers. But that is not Christianity you are describing, at all.
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ReplyDeleteI don't really know that much about any religion. I thought Islam and Christians both believed in the same God as the Old Testament is part of the Quran. I find that as the Old Testament is also the Tora and Jewish history so again the same God, its all quite confusing. Is the Old Testament supposed to be based on the word of God or just the history of Jews written by men as they saw things at the time. You mentioned "original sin" which is part of the Old Testament so is that the word of God or mans attempt at understanding who we are and where we come from. If the Old Testament is all God inspired then so is the fire and brimstone of the OT and God in those days was not really kind and loving to many people. The Israelites as his chosen people were the only ones he cared about in those days and everyone else seemed to be his enemy. It was only when Jesus came along that he suddenly opened the gates to everyone, although in Revelation the bible says there will be a certain number saved.
ReplyDeleteAs a Christian, what parts of the bible are relevant to you ?
I'm not even sure I believe there is a God so I'm not talking about "my God" I recently got to know a Christian who started me thinking and wondering. You must also believe in the God of the Old Testament if you believe in original sin. I know enough to know that the Old Testament is also part of the Quran and the Tora so Christians, Muslims and Jews at least, all believe in the same God. Who if any is closest to the truth ? If any, is there a God, perhaps a force, power, we don't understand that somehow connects things but is it a thinking, planning, personality type entity in the form of a God most people seem to have in mind ?
I'm not sure I can believe it is. I'm not keen on the Adam & Eve story or the original sin you mentioned. Not sure I agree with good and evil in the same way you seem to. Yes people do some bloody awful, sick, horrendous things. We know from history that its pretty easy to brainwash people. Just look at Hitler and his Hitler youth and the holucaust. There have been many dictators who rule by fear. But I think if you compare people now to people in the dark ages then it seems that most people today are far more compassionate these days. I'm talking about people in general. There are still exceptions to the rule and extremes. But most countries have outgrown public hangings, torture, burning people at the stake, prisons have to meet certain standards. Yes there are exceptions but in general as standards of living improve then so do morals and values. I'm not blinkered, there is still a lot of pain and hardship in this world but people are just people, there is no perfection. If God created people in his image then perhaps he isn't perfect either. After all, if you believe the bible then he created good and bad so good and bad must be in him. If he is love then he is also hate. He mentions his wrath in the bible as well as hate so we know he has both. Look at the way he killed whole nations in the OT.
I'm not picking faults, just trying to understand what if any is correct. Is any of it real or is it mans early explanation of his world as he understood it. Was Jesus the son of a God or a great philosopher of how people could improve the world according to his understanding. Did he call himself the son of God because he lived in a world that believed in Gods and saw God as the creator who created all things including himself. Did he simply see God as a father figure so called himself the son of God ?
I mention "your" God and "my" God. I have no God. I want to know more before I decide what I believe.
PS
ReplyDeleteI see why you like the prodigal son story but personally I would prefer it if the father had equipped and taught the son to be able to go into the world and stand on his own two feet and give him the ability to be independent. I think the best parents are the ones who raise children who are capable of doing things for themselves, who know what they want in life and are capable of achieving it. If I was a parent I would consider myself a failure if my if the prodigal son was my son. Yes I would be there to help if they needed it but I would hope one day they would go into the world and be successful doing their own thing. One day they will be parents themselves.
FiFi
ReplyDeleteYou wont find the answers you are looking for here, try the Atheist blogs.
People there will talk to you and be willing to explain in depth and answer any questions you have. Many of them were Christian for years and have studied the bible for themselves in great depth in search of answers. Most will welcome your questions and be more than happy to help you.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteWish I hadn't got into any of this to start with. Since I started looking into religion to see if any of it was real its become like a battlefield. Some religions or denominations preach about hellfire and brimstone for our sins. Some go on about obedience, rules and righteousness. Some preach love and forgiveness, and that's just one belief system of one God. Then there are other beliefs about the spirit and healing and living in the spirit. Then there is Karma, Dharma, meditation, reincarnation. It's all very confusing.
TBH, I think if there was one of them that had it right then it would stand out from the others. If its meant to be then it will find its way to me naturally as I am open to something but the more I look into it the more people I find with different beliefs, all convinced theirs is right. Perhaps its a case of what's right for the individual rather than having one right answer for all. I'm not that bothered anymore, all this confusion and conflicting ideas are doing my head in. Think I shall stay as I am.
FiFi
ReplyDeleteTell me, what were you looking for, what did you expect to find ?
I'll take some time to reply to these various comments Fifi as best I can without being completely comprehensive, it's pretty difficult to reply to as many thoughts as that in such a short space and with limited time :)
ReplyDeleteThe Islamic Koran is different from the Jewish scripture, which is also what Christians call the Old Testament. So yes, you are right on that score, for both Jews and Christians they use the same scripture. Christians take the Jewish books and add on what they call the New Testament about Jesus and his followers. But Muslims use the Koran which is a completely different text but borrows some of the same characters and history from both Judaism and Christianity, and adds the various verses about God loving not the unbeliever etc
So you do need to be careful not to lump Christianity together with Islam as they use completely different scripture.
The Old Testament (I'll just use that Christian phrasing from now on) is full of a lot of different books. Some of the books are history and mainly descriptive of what happened, some are poetry, some are songs, some are wisdom literature, some are prophecy. And most are in some way descriptive of the the relationship between God and mankind.
Original sin is the idea that man has fallen from the correct relation with God and is also sinful. Meaning, we fail often to do what is right, being convicted both by our own consciousness, according to others, and according to God. Simply I just expressed it in the idea that we are flawed beings who fail to do what is the right thing. Both individually and as a society we are morally flawed.
Bible question, all parts of the Bible are relevant to me. But I strongly believe they must be understood by intention and genre. For instance Genesis is a poetic account about origins and the relation between God and man. In the original Hebrew language it's actually beautiful poetry I have been told. But it's not a scientific text, and should never be interpreted as such. In fact it's only been recently used that way and early Christians in the church even advised against it long before the theory of evolution came along.
If I could address another point you made, I don't know if people have been getting progressively better. More people were killed in the 20th century than in all of previous human history. Especially under communist atheistic dictators such as Stalin, Moa, Pol Pot etc
Unfortunately if you want to understand something you really have to put the time in. For Christianity you can always read the Bible, take it from there, not what anyone else tells you. If you want to understand Judaism read the Old Testament. Islam, read the Koran (you can get it in English translation). Atheism, read about atheism. I regularly interact with atheists, I would suggest you don't get your knowledge of religions from atheist blog sites, it's invariably always pretty atrocious in my experience as they only seem to care about cheap points to prove something they don't believe in wrong (especially on the internet).
If you want to quest for answers there is no easy way around it really. You have to go to the sources. As for Christianity, the entire thing stands or falls on the Resurrection of Jesus. Was he just a great man? Was the the Jewish messiah? And did he really die on a roman cross and then come back to life again on the third day? It's an historical claim.
Thanks anonymous and Peter.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - not sure what I'm looking for, I think I expected to find something that would inspire me into believing something was right. I expected, if there was a God and I discovered something of him then my heart would feel it and my head would agree with it.
Peter - Thanks for your time and explanation.
I don't think I can believe there is a miracle performing God or that Jesus was his son and came back to life. I do believe perhaps in Jesus the man with a good message and teachings, but I think that's it. I think if there was an all powerful God who created the world and us then as quite a spiritual person I would expect my soul to feel some kind of connection to it if I found a way of reaching to it. I think there is a strong possibility of reincarnation but not resurrection. I can feel a connection to Jesus the man but not a God and I think that connection is just an agreement and understanding of what he was teaching that ends there. So I don't think Christianity is for me or any religion as I think I would need to feel passionate about it being right to be part of it, otherwise it would feel like I'm faking it and I couldn't do that.
I think I just wanted something like God and Jesus to be real. The reality is, wanting doesn't make it so.
ReplyDeleteSorry Peter if this goes against your beliefs but trying to force myself to believe what I honestly don't just because the idea sounds good isn't something I can do. If that makes sense.
I know what you mean FiFi so yes you do make sense.
ReplyDeleteI was once a Christian and had faith, strong faith but something happened and I lost it. once something has gone and you no longer believe, you cant bring it back. I didn't want to loose my faith and, it upset me deeply to loose it. Its like trust, once its gone or if its not there even though you try if its not there you cant force it.
You either believe or you don't. I stopped believing a few years ago and its like when you realize Santa isn't real, its something there is just no going back from. I do sometimes miss my faith as it was a huge part of who I was as a person, at one point it was the biggest part of who I was, so loosing it was a big blow to me. I was left feeling like I was in limbo, not really knowing who I am as a person anymore. I rediscovered myself, still am, still changing and growing, discovering. Its not the end of the world I thought it would be, in fact it turned out to be a whole new beginning.
You need to discover yourself properly before being able to commit to anything. I never was part of a church or anything, I don't think anyone even noticed when I stopped going. I had a few aquiantances there but no friends to talk to about it. No one contacted me to find out if I was ok or why I didn't go anymore. That made it easier to move on and put it behind ne. For a while I felt guilty because I thought I'd let Jesus down but I couldn't force myself to believe it all. Its all just history now. Jesus is a historical figure not the son of a God I no longer believe exists. I think perhaps I was caught up in the romance of it but got a reality check. Whatever it was. I don't think even a miracle would ever enable me to believe in it ever again. I've moved way to far forward in my beliefs. I can't undo or unlearn what I've learnt since then.
Best of luck to you for the future, hope you find what your looking for.
Hey thanks Anonymous and Fifi, good conversation.
ReplyDeleteI suppose if you read my blog posts they are mainly aimed towards people who are already Christian. So that many be a part of the disconnect you feel, they take some things for granted that you won't believe in when you approach it.
Actually, most of them were written for two purposes. The last three under my name were also written for the magazine Christian Today Australia. And I think this one was republished in a Catholic publication as well.
But they are still interesting to read for whomever. If I was writing for a secular audience I'd probably write them a little different. I'm certainly glad your reading them and commenting on them! If anything I hope they are educational as to what one Christian is thinking about different issues etc
As to the reality of God issue. I sincerely believe there is a God out there that can be encountered. I would suggest reading the New Testament gospels about Jesus - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and expressing yourself towards him in prayer. It might be fascinating also to chat to a Christian for a while just to get to know their perspectives. If you live on the shore Fifi the youth pastor at Windsor Amanda Pilbrow is pretty approachable and is always wanting to have a coffee and chat with anyone. If it was me and I was interested I would just do it, she's not pushy and you don't really have much to lose in my opinion.
Anyway, may the conversation continue! :)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - I find what you said made me feel a little sad for some reason. It sounds like you lost something very meaningful to you. Loosing things in life like that leaves emptiness that needs filling. I hope you find something of as much value to you to fill the void.
ReplyDeletePeter - I wouldn't feel comfortable talking to a pastor, it reminds me of talking to the headmaster at school for some reason. (Never something I enjoyed) I prefer a more relaxed forum in a setting I'm comfortable with. Churches and preachers are way to formal a setting for me. It's interesting you would write differently if for a secular audience. I would have thought when writing for something in a public place such as a blog then you would have it in mind that there will be others reading as these days so much gets passed around and seen by so many, little stays solely for the audience it was originally intended. Is everyone that goes to church an educated, committed Christian. I have been reading a bible. Quite a lot of the NT and some of the OT. For it to resonate though, I would first have to believe it to be inspired by God and that Jesus really was the son of God. Without that belief its just people's interpretation of their beliefs. With that in mind, I can see where the people are coming from and why they believe what they do but it doesn't make me believe its real. I read a very simple explanation of a woman's interpretation of one of the bible stories that made complete sense to me but probably wasn't what you would hear in church judging by people's comments. That's one thing I like about Internet forums, they are open to anyone and you get to read so many different perspectives, ideas, points of view. I find it fascinating.
The story was about a woman who had been bleeding for years and wasn't allowed to touch anyone or anything because the bleeding made her unclean. (This would have made life very unpleasant for her)
ReplyDeleteThe woman pushed through a crowded place and touched Jesus robe. Jesus asked who had touched him and said that her faith had healed her. Apparently most people interpret this to mean the woman's had been physically healed and stopped bleeding. (A miraculous healing)
The woman's interpretation was that Jesus knew who had touched him but asked because he wanted others to witness and know who had touched him. Jesus didn't tell the woman off for touching him and any others in the crowd she may have touched and made unclean, instead he said her faith had healed her. It would have been impossible for anyone to have known straight away if the woman had stopped bleeding so was that the healing ? The explanation I read was that it was a healing of the mind. That Jesus and this woman no longer considered her unclean and unable to touch anyone or anything because of her bleeding. It was the abolishing of this law and mentality that was the healing. This woman's life and the lives of other women could remain normal from now on.
This explanation makes so much sense to me. I can believe in this but not the miraculous healing. In a way though, for such a woman to be accepted as normal and not an outcast in those times would have been like a life changing miracle to her and other women. I like this woman's interpretation, I like what she has to say in general, she makes a lot of sense in her understanding of the bible and people of that time.