Wednesday 8 May 2013

Peter Rope: Anzac
























It was the morning of the 25th of April, and five people scrambled out of bed at 5:30am and into the darkness. The reason for this auspicious awakening was Anzac day. And my flatmates and I were scrambling to make, what I thought was a small, beachside dawn service.

Having driven to the beach in question we were forced to park a far stretch away. I expected a turnout of two hundred or so people, but the scarcity of parking suggested otherwise. It was surprising in the half light at such an early hour to see so many cars sitting in the cold dark dawn as we walked.

By the beach we joined the gathered throng. Mothers and fathers, children and grandparents, young people, and couples. All demographics in the country represented it seemed, and in various states of zombified alertness. I was impressed and surprised by the vast numbers of people who were sacrificing their morning rest to get up so early on what has become a public holiday, and was proud to count myself amongst that number.

We ended up a vast distance away from the memorial all the crowds were converging towards, with hundreds of people between us. But could luckily still hear the proceedings due to a speaker on a pole that had been erected only ten metres away from where we were standing. We stood upon the beginnings of a concrete boat ramp, leading from the grass to the water at high tide. The masses were silent, reverent.

The service had already begun. The minister was giving an introduction and a short talk about the sacrifice the Anzac soldiers had made which next transitioned into a prayer. He mentioned Jesus, he mentioned the Holy Spirit, in his prayer. And it seemed to me the mood in the crowd was tangible. People looked away, people tuned out his words. They were indifferent, they were tolerant, and they didn’t care. These were words the crowd didn’t relate to, and didn’t want to hear.

And it seemed to me this sort of language hits people’s ears like a foreign language even in my own homeland. The sacrifice of our soldiers is much more real and tangible than the sacrifice of Christ. And the comparison is a comparison that seems oddly out of place. It echoes on the periphery of New Zealand society, the place were we relegate such infrequent occasions as weddings and funerals.

After the prayer is over with, silence. There are no sounds coming from the speaker nearby, the crowd seems still and reverent. In the silence I can distinctly hear the high tide lapping upon the beach close by, slowly, sadly, and the rhythm reminds me of some poetic lines by Matthew Arnold, lifted from his poem Dover Beach.

Sophocles long ago
Heard it on the A gaean, and it brought
Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow
Of human misery; we
Find also in the sound a thought,
Hearing it by this distant southern sea.

The Sea of Faith
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating, to the breath
Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
And naked shingles of the world.

We sing the national anthem. God save New Zealand. The bagpipes play and the crowd disperses to café after café, lit by the light of the new day. And all I am thinking is, God, where did we go wrong.



The poem Dover Beach by Matthew Arnold in it’s entirety (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/arnold/writings/doverbeach.html

29 comments:

  1. You know Sam, I'm not sure you fully understood what the Anzac service was about. The whole purpose was to honour the soldiers who fought and gave their lives. Its a service for the families of those men to attend and remember the bravery of their loved ones who died that day. Its about celebrating the fact that those men died for something they believed in and that was us. They gave their lives so that their families and generations to come after then can live a peaceful life in freedom. This is what Anzac services are about. Some of those men, their families and other people at the service don't share your belief's about Jesus so to them it would be like listening to a foreign language and not relevant to why they were there.
    It wasn't a Christmas or Easter service. It wasn't a sunday morning service for a local church. It wasn't about God or Jesus, It was about honouring men (with differing religious beliefs)for fighting a battle and dying for their country. To have made the religious beliefs of some of these men the focus of the service would not have been honouring all of the men and what they died for.
    If you want service that praise and worship what you believe then stick to services relating to and designed to do that.
    If you went to a service designed at honouring something your grandfather did and the main focus of the service was devoted to praising and worshiping Allah or Buddha because that's what some of the other men believed then you wouldn't feel the service represented and honoured your grandfather much because this wasn't relevant to him and that wasn't what he fought and gave his life for. The service would have failed in its purpose.

    The reason the sacrifice of the soldiers was much more real and tangible to them is because that's what the service was about. Many of the people there may have had fathers, brothers, cousin, uncles, loved ones who died in a war and they turned up on that day to remember and honour them. The service was about people, for people.
    Least we forget....

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    1. This is actually Peter's article! I'll let him know he has some fan mail waiting :)

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  2. OOps, sorry about the mix author mix up.
    Another thing I thought about. It sounds as though Peter is upset the service didn't relate more to the sacrifice of Christ. Imagine if he had and he had turned the service round and used it as an opportunity to preach. Imagine being there an old atheist soldier in the crowd who perhaps had fellow atheist family members and friends who died on Anzac beach and in the war. How would do you think he would react to someone turning a day set aside to honour his family member and friends into an opportunity to preach their beliefs an turn it around to suit themselves. It sounds to me that people were respectful and understanding of the fact that some peoples faith is important to them so it was relevant and appropriate to have a minister there to talk and pray. But the service was for all the soldiers and their families not just the Christian ones. To turn it into a service with to heavy a Christian focus would only serve Christians and has the risk of offending none Christians to the point of anger that something that is supposed to be for everyone has been taken over by Christians to serve their purpose. This runs the risk of excluding and alienating those with alternative beliefs to the point of them feeling that Anzac services are not appropriate to them. It may not endear Christianity to none believers but rather give them the impression that Christians are not mindful and respecting of others and their beliefs and have gone in and taken over, pushing them out in the process.
    Just as those who were mindful and respectful of your beliefs while the minister was talking and praying, you have to also be mindful and respectful of others and remember why they were there and what the service may have meant to them.

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  3. A well known phrase carved into a concentration camp cell by a Jewish prisoner

    "If there really is a God, he needs to beg my forgiveness"

    There are many people in this world who suffer and have suffered not only in wars but because of famine, flood, acts of violent crime or because of the greed of other, many other reasons. some of those people may have been at the Anzac service. To make such a service about your god would only add insult to injury to these people.

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    1. @ Anonymous

      It's Peter here, the writer of the article.

      Actually, I completely agree with you, the service was about the Anzac soldiers and not about Christ or Christianity etc

      I did actually find it odd the pastor brought it up in this way as well, it was a little odd, I'm not saying I agree with what he did at all really.

      But the point of the article was not to detract from Anzac day, or to say we should preach more Christianity at the Anzac service.

      But just to say. "Hey, this is what happened. And there are my thoughts at that particular moment in the service."

      So the article is not so much about Anzac day itself, it's more about these particular thoughts that struck me during the service I was attending about something else that was somewhat unrelated - the state of Christianity in New Zealand

      And to provoke the same thoughts in others.

      Cheers,

      Peter

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    2. I think the state of Christianity is pretty much as expected. It was introduced by European settlers and as its dwindled in Europe its dwindled a bit here. Add this to the fact that settlers today come from all over the world, making NZ very much a multicultural country its people now have a much broader range of beliefs. Just like when Europeans came the population and beliefs of the country changed. Nothing stays the same. The population and beliefs of our people are still growing and changing.

      I fully understand the Jewish prisoners statement and think this has a lot to do with people's attitude towards God. The young boy being raped by a catholic priest probably also questioned a god that watched and did nothing while he was praying for it to stop. People get tired of putting their faith into something that's not working and decide to take matters into their own hands. When the help they so desperately need comes from another source rather than the god they were faithful to and trusted then they stop believing. When times are tough, people do what they can to get through them and are faithful to whoever or whatever helped them get through it. If there is a god then his apathy drives people away in search of what they need. Why would anyone ever go back to something that didn't care enough to help them or didn't work in their lives.

      If there is a god out there, I haven't seen any evidence of him.

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    3. Do you agree with the last stanza of the poem Fifi, and perhaps Anonymous as well?

      "Ah, love, let us be true
      To one another! for the world, which seems
      To lie before us like a land of dreams,
      So various, so beautiful, so new,
      Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
      Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
      And we are here as on a darkling plain
      Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
      Where ignorant armies clash by night."

      Do you agree with his vision of the world without such meaning, a world devoid of meaning>?

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    4. Peter, no I don't agree.
      My world has meaning, my life has purpose and meaning to me and others, so to me the world has meaning. I can understand there are times in life when its easy to loose sight of that and that because my life is stable with people around who care and support me, this makes it easy for me to be stable and feel secure in who I am. I know there are many out there who are not so fortunate. Mothers living in famine struck countries, struggling to stay alive and to keep their children alive. They would probably disagree and wonder what life is supposed to be about. People like that might buy into the idea of a God who offers them something better in death because who wants to think that pain and misery is all there will ever be and if you sell it to them with the emphasis on a better afterlife where they will be rewarded for their suffering, then its appealing to them. If you try to sell it to them with the emphasis on an all powerful God the creator who through all things anything is possible, then he won't be so appealing as they will ask the question, " why did he create them to suffer so much and why hasn't he answered their prayers and helped alleviate their suffering, why doesn't he end the drought, the famine to help them so their children can live and stop dying in their arms?" Why indeed ?

      I don't see any evidence of a caring God, if there is one then perhaps we are all just part of an experiment and he doesn't care. All I know is I can do my bit. Wether or not there is a god out there is irrelevant to me. I can choose what's important to me and how I live my life. I can't change the world but I can do something to help someone. I can make a small difference in some lives. My life can and does have meaning because I choose to make it so. When I die I will be happy in the knowledge that I didn't waste it but used it to be a useful part of the world I lived in. That gives me the purpose and meaning to life that I'm happy with.

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    5. I was going to summarize something to the effect of the argument in this video, but if you have the time you may be interested in watching it, I'm not saying I agree with all of it, but it would be worth thinking about. Here's the video here ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWRoJ9myovY ), let me know what you think about ultimate meaning given no external reality outside ourselves? Does this mean we have no ultimate meaning, and have you thought about it at all in this context before?

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    6. Well I read it......
      I can't believe this man is given a platform to stand and talk on. I believe that giving any sort of credibility to people like this guy is absurd. I disagree with just about everything he said, he hasn't even done proper research to get his facts right. It's blatantly obvious that the only knowledge he has is of his own beliefs and everything is based on that. He is assuming so much about people and the beliefs of this world while remaining totally ignorant as to what they actually are. I have no idea where he is supposed to be going while talking about "The Gathering" as he links it with Atheism. Why ? Hitler had very strong Christian beliefs. He was brought up a Catholic, went to a monastery school. (Part of its coat of arms was a swastika) as a child he wanted to become a priest. He became a member of The German Christian Social Movement" like many leaders he opposed and fought against some Catholic Priests and he didn't much care for organised religion. But the Vatican never disowned him, but blessed him. Hitler like many of his era was taught as a Christian to hate Jews. He admired Martin Luther King and shared his hatred of Jews as written in MLK's book, On The Jews and their Lies. Hitler strongly believed he was doing Gods work as this statement and many others clearly shows.
      "I believe I am acting in the accordance with the will of the almighty creator by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of The Lord."

      In my opinion the bible is a great teacher of Genocide and ethnic cleansing. The best example being Noah and the flood.

      The guy presumes everyone is obsessed with the meaning of life and immortality. Why ? What gives him that impression ? I asked a few people including older people as I thought it may be more relevant to them and it wasn't high on anyone's list. Perhaps I don't know many philosophers.
      He says that life has meaning and value in the Christian world view and that everyone else just makes up a meaning. Who's to say his meaning is any more correct than anyone else's ? Many people believe the bible is an attempt by man to understand the world he lived in, in accordance to the limited knowledge and understanding of how the world worked.
      To say the lives of such people as Archimedes, Thomas Edison, Louis Pasteur, Socrates, has no meaning or value without a God is stupid. Ask the woman whose child's life was saved by penicillin and she would disagree. If a person or their action has meaning or value to you then its authentic. If someone only believe they are meaningful to you but in reality they are not, then its not authentic. If anything I do is genuinely appreciated by another then that act has authentic value. If you believe what this guy says then humanity has no value. Empathy counts for nothing and it wouldn't matter how we lived because its all meaningless and unimportant. I would advise a person suffering from low self esteem listen to this guy as he would push them down even further.
      I am of value to others, therefore I have value. I am useful member of the society I live in, which is part of a much bugger universe. It doesn't bother me that I'm not one of the greats that will be remembered for years to come. My immortality will be in my children and their children and the generations to come. None of which would exist if there was no me. My DNA will be my immortality.

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    7. Meant to say (wouldn't advise anyone with low self esteem to listen to him)

      This guy seems to think our only purpose in life is for his God and eternity with him. This same God is often referred to as our loving father. If I devoted my life to pleasing my father believing this was my purpose, then my father would consider himself a failure as a parent. I question the moral values of the OT with its views on women, slavery and constant killing. I question the whole death for our sins and Gods wanting a blood sacrifice. Would it be fitting to sentence a man to death for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving family ? None of this gives my life purpose, value or meaning but my fellow humans here on earth do. They are hear, they are real, they are living and I and my actions affect them in the same way they affect me. This man tries to dismiss this fact. If what we do for each other is so worthless why bother to do it.
      I believe people are of great, value, worth, meaning. I guess this would make me a humanitarian. That's something this guy knows nothing about.

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    8. My last thoughts are that the way this guy talks only makes me think that its probable that God only exists in the minds of those who believe in him so only has the power they give him. Nothing this guy said gave the idea of a God any credibility and I would say that he and his beliefs do more harm than good to Christianity as he turns me away from it by removing its credibility. Plus, if his beliefs are typical Christian, then he comes across as someone only interested in what he believes with no desires to get to know others, how they live or what they believe, rather choosing to stick to his narrow view point of the world and its people and presuming the rest. His attitude tells me he is not an evangelist but someone who spends a lot of his time with like minded people, reinforcing his and their beliefs in a similar way to brainwashing as I find his view of the world and its people lacking in tolerance of those who are different and bordering on unhealthy. Of course, this is just my humble opinion and I have somewhat generalised, but I watched it and have just been honest about what I think and the impression it gave me. I strongly suggest you don't show it to anyone you want to introduce to Christianity as this is more likely to put people off. It bib me anyway. I was more likely to be open to something that would help me understand it before I watched this guy. Now I'm feeling like I'm not interested in people like this guy as I don't like his attitude towards people and their beliefs as he shows no respect for those who are different. I would I want to get to know people like him who are only interested in proving their beliefs by twisting reality and having no interest in humanity. This guy doesn't care about the people of this world because he isn't interested enough to get to them. He is only interested in growing his own narrow beliefs amongst those similar to himself. I like getting to know people and what makes them tick. Why would I want to get to know people who don't want to get to know me. If he is a typical example of Christians and their beliefs then I'm not interested thanks.
      Sorry for the long response but it was a long clip to watch.

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    9. Apologies for butting in and going a little off topic but FiFi did mention that she didn't see the connection with Josef Mengele. Some people link Mengele's fascination for genetics to Darwinism and evolution. There are some Christian extremists who think of Darwin as some kind of anti Christ and think of Atheism as some kind of religion using evolution to discredit God. In doing so they use Mengele as an example to show that Atheists are evil. They fail to recognise though that Hitler is just as evil in wanting to cleanse the world of Jews and was doing so in the name of his beloved Jesus Christ. Hitler was taught to hate Jews because they were responsible for the death of Jesus by popular Christian teachings of his time.

      Of course there are those who preach that God created man in his own image thus giving man the capacity to love and hate as God gives examples of his ability to do both in the bible. God's wrath is mentioned in the bible along with hating those who hate him. God created hell as a place of eternal torture and suffering of the extreme kind as a punishment. This shows Gods ability of evil alongside the love that's talked about and both Gods love and ability to do good along with Gods hate and ability to do evil are both reflected in man as man is made in Gods image.
      Of course this is assuming there is a God in the first place.

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    10. Thanks Anonymous for the explanation. I have noticed there is a bit of a "them & us " attitude on some blogs. Must say I really don't like it at all. Can't we just all be people, citizens of the world, so to speak. It's absurd to suggest all Atheista are evil and to call Darwin some kind of anti Christ is more like something from a horror movie. It is worrying if there are people out there who actually believe that sort of thing. There are good and bad people in every culture and to use extremists such a Hitler and Mengler as general examples of Christians and Atheists is absurd. I prefer not to give myself a label as I'm content to just be me. Not keen on the conflict involved in joining groups as I'm not a fan of inclusion/exclusion. It just adds to the "them & us" attitude that I hate. Think I shall stay free and be me. All this started because of a Christian guy I met, but if I have to change my beliefs to be truly accepted by him then it shows he's not accepting of me. Thanks for your time and thoughts.

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    11. FiFi, Do you realize what you just wrote.
      'if I have to change my beliefs to be truly accepted by him then it shows he's not accepting of me'
      This just really struck a chord with me as I too have been struggling with my beliefs. This also applies to God. It doesn't matter what I have done in life, all he is interested in is wether or not I worship him. He's not interested in whats inside me, only that I devote myself to him. I could be the kindest sweetest person in the world, but that counts for nothing if I don't bow down to him. God only accepts me if I change my beliefs, meaning he doesn't really, truly accept me at all.

      tHANK YOU fIfi

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    12. I'm sorry that's the version of Christianity you've heard, because this is everything that Christianity isn't! I'm so sorry that's what you've been told or what you've experienced. But personally, if Christianity WASN'T as good as it is with God accepting me despite everything I am and everything I've done, I wouldn't be a Christian. But because it really is that good (and it really is, despite what Christians sometimes say) I can't get enough of learning and going deeper into understand the love of God. That's what it's about! It's so freeing!

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    13. Well Sam, like it or not it's out there and its ugly and it segregates people into groups that are picking fault with each other, even amongst other Christian groups. This is not setting people free, its tying then to their narrow views and setting them against each other. As someone who's an observer and not part of it, its easy to see.

      It worries me that you say 'God accepts me despite everything I am and everything I've done"
      Not meaning to pry but it sounds as though you've done some pretty awful things in life if you thing like this and think there is some reason your not acceptable to people and God as you make it sound as though your a bit of an outsider and not acceptable to many people. If you have done something bad in your past, you cant undo it but you can do your best to put things right and learn from it. We decide what sort of people we want to be. We don't have to be tied to our past. Every moment, every day, every week, every month, every year, is a new opportunity to redefine who we are. Todays actions define who you are now and tomorrows define who you are becoming. Everyone makes mistakes in life and the things others see in us is often a reflection of what's in themselves. I have recently overcome a time of low self esteem and a feeling of low self worth so I recognised that in you. Perhaps you haven't done anything particularly bad at all. Either way, you make it sound like there has been a time when you felt unloved and unaccepted and this is what your looking for in God. Hope you find it.
      I was lucky enough to find it in people and no longer searching as I know I am lovable and acceptable as I am. I have enough people around who notice the good in people and bring that out in me. I feel very lucky and much loved. Im loved for all of who I am, not despite of anything. The bad stuff adds to my value. Its given me compassion and a way of understanding that I lacked before.

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    14. Sam, I really struggle with this issue of the cross...
      This Amazing grace who saved a wretch like me.
      I have read so many stories and prayers from people praising God for his mercy, his grace, for his love and acceptance of them "despite" this wretched sinner they are.
      Some of these people have such wretched awful lives, with such low self esteem. I can hear them in their prayers begging God for the loving kindness and support the desperately need but are getting from the people around them in their lives. Or perhaps they are getting it but they feel so undeserving of it to either see it or reach out to it. Either way, their prayers are not being answered as God hasn't sent them the key to unlock their minds or lives from their misery.
      This continual prayer only serves to confirm to themselves their unworthiness. What have they done that's so bad in the first place. What is it they need saving from ? Why do they feel so ashamed and unworthy.

      These poor people have been told they are sinners and the punishment for their sin is hell. However Jesus suffered excruciating pain and death on the cross in their place. How awful and guilty does this make them feel. They are the reason Jesus died and suffered, they have to carry this shame and guilt around with them. They had no choice in the matter. No choice to save Jesus and take their own punishment (this at least would take away the guilt and shame of being responsible for someone elses death) What was their crime that Jesus died for, what awful thing have they done in their lives to cause this?
      Tell me Sam, what awful crime have you committed in your life that Jesus died for ?
      These poor, poor people are being held down and made to feel guilty for Jesus death, they are begging Gods forgiveness and thanking him and praising him for his love, mercy and grace. For loving them so much that he sent Jesus to die in their place...
      This is serious stuff, its nothing to be taken lightly, its peoples lives its affecting.
      Whose punishment are they being saved from and have they done anything bad enough that Jesus needed to dye for it. Does this punishment fit the crime and is it fair to take away their choice of taking responsibility for their actions and imposing the guilt and shame they feel thinking their sin is the cause of Jesus death.
      How will they ever be able to build self esteem and think of themselves as someone of value and worth while carrying this around. The worse thing is, Ive noticed its those who have had pain and suffering that brings them down that are mostly affected by this. It's because they know what suffering does to a person that they can't cope with the fact they have bought suffering to others. I hate this It makes me want to shout at those people and tell them to get off their knees and stop praying. They have done nothing wrong, they are not an unworthy wretch in need of God's grace. They are lovable and worthy as they are.

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    15. Sam, I suggest you read your bible again, but this time start at the beginning not two parts through and read ALL of it. Just picking through the bits you like and sticking with that doesn't give you the full story. I think you will agree God is quite a tyrant in the old testament. It's almost like he was trying to redeem himself with the Jesus story. Or was it emotional blackmail knowing that people are eternally grateful for someone who saves their lives so he switched to this method to get people to worship and obey him instead of the old rule by fear of the OT.
      Once again, assuming the bible was inspired by the existence of a God and not another attempt by man to try and understand the world he lived in. As we have to ask the Question....
      Is it God who changes the rules or man ?

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  4. I can see where both Peter and FiFi are going with what you are saying. It boils down to which way you look at things, who's shoes your standing in, how life and those around have treated you has great influence on a persons outlook. for example...
    criticise someone and they learn to condemn, treat them with hostility and they learn to fight, ridicule and they become shy, shame them and they feel guilty. Encourage people and they become confident, be tolerant and they learn patience, approval teaches them to like themselves, fairness teaches justice, accept them and they learn to find friendship and love in the world.
    People are like mirrors, they reflect what's going on around them and this is reflected back into the world we live in.

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  5. I see it like this,
    When God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple also known as the fruit from the tree of knowledge, the knowledge was that if they disobeyed him and did so then they would see a different side to him, they would experience Gods wrath, his bad side. If God was the creator of everything then he created the serpent to tempt them, did God give man free will because he was curious as to the choices he would make, our curiosity comes from God, or was man pre destined by God to eat the apple ? Everything God created had to exist in Gods imagination or knowledge for him to create it. If a child creates a picture of a purple monster then the purple crayon has to exist to colour it in and the image of the monster has to exist in the child's imagination to create it. the alternative is the child draws randomly then decides what's on the page most resembles a monster.

    God is like a computer, it has the capacity to do far more than we use it for and many of its functions never get used and often remain unknown to the user. Most people use what's relevant to them on keep most of the focus on that. God, if there is one is both good and evil, love and hate. He is all that we are capable of and more, the good, the bad and the ugly all wrap up in one. he has to take credit for all that is beautiful and all that is ugly in this world as the creator, it all came from him. He created animals that needed to kill each other in order to survive and gave man the capacity and personality that would do good and evil in reflection of who God is. Some people like to focus on the good side of God and some on the bad, some look at the bigger picture and acknowledge both.

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    1. Actually, this makes more sense to me than a lot of things I've heard, if there is a God that is. I struggle with the concept of a thinking, planning creator who's in charge of everything or capable of being. Some say he has plans for us then others say we have free will so its up to us. If its up to us then he isn't in control. Looking at the state of some parts of the world I'd say he has no control, going by the behaviour of the few Christians I know, I would say he has little control over their actions towards others. I haven't come across any evidence to suggest there is a God, not one with a positive influence on this world anyway. I read one blog about someone who had been suffering and in need for years and had been praying for help for ages with no success. Then another blog about God answering a womans prayers for her daughters team to win a game of netball and moving from a nice comfortable house in a good neighbourhood to a big, fantastic house in a wealthy neighbourhood. This just sickened me. I doubt very much there was a God in any of it but rather luck of the draw in where your born, who your parents are and basic life circumstances and opportunities or lack of. After much thought and investigation I have decided its down to us, thanks for the time and Imput guys, but I just don't believe there is a God.

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  6. Hey guys,

    Fifi: going back to what you said about meaning. First I'd like to say I do believe your life has meaning regardless of your beliefs, as I believe in a God who gives purpose to life regardless of standing.

    By definition however, atheism demands that life is ultimately meaningless.

    If there isn't a God and life is an evolutionary accident, then you exist simply because you do. You can say that family and friends give you meaning. Admirable a pursuit as that is - they will be gone someday and any love shown to them ultimately won't have mattered. Again, this is not my view, but a view that atheism demands by conclusion.

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  7. Ben, regardless of my beliefs, any children I have, and the generations to come after me who are part of my lineage would not have existed if not for me. Part of my purpose is to keep mankind alive in this way. This is something you cannot deny as your bible sees this as important. If not then why bother making so much fuss about Jesus being from the line of David and telling Abraham that his descendants shall equal the number of stars. Again I say that people like Louis Pasture, Thomas Edison, Einstein, to name a few, have had great value to mankind for their discoveries, regardless of their beliefs. Their immortality is in the legacy they have left behind. Doesn't matter if my great, great, great, great grandchildren don't know or love me. No one can alter the fact they couldn't exist without me. I'm happy for them to be my immortality. The fact they won't know or love me is irrelevant as I won't be around to know. If what I do now has value now, that's what matters as I'm here now. I won't be here in 100 years time to know if I'm loved so it doesn't bother me.
    I don't see that a God gives any purpose to my life as none has influence over it. At the end of the day it doesn't matter which of us is right or wrong as believing in something or not has no influence over its existence. It's a wait and see situation. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and pretend to believe just in case as I would see dedicating my life to something I don't believe in to be a waste of my life. As I see it, we only have one life and I'm not going to waste it. If what I do is of value to someone then that's good. If someone you know does something fantastic for you would you shrug and say "well actually that wasn't important" of course not. You would appreciate it. This means that what they did added to your happiness. This to me is something of value. I'm here now, so what happens now affects me so is of worth. It doesn't matter how we got here, what matters is what we choose to do now we are here. We can't change the fact that we will all one day die and can only guess at what happens after that. I'm concentrating on what's real, and what have influence over which is here and now. If God created the world, then who created God ?

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  8. Ben, do you think that serving God is what gives life purpose and meaning ? Or is it perhaps because you think God created the world that only he can give it purpose?
    I'm struggling with the concept that we need a God to have value, purpose and meaning. Why ?
    I think with or without a God what we do can have meaning and value. Do we need purpose as in an overall plan from beginning to end... Not really, I believe we have opportunities, things happen, this helps shape and guide us. Being flexible is what helps us survive. I don't need an ultimate plan or purpose in life, I'm happy to go with the flow. Our value is decided by others. You can advertise something at a fixed price on trade me, but its only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It's all irrelevant really. It's not something that bothers me. We are all basically living life the best we can according to what we understand and believe is important to ourselves. That doesn't mean we are all selfish because helping others to be the best they can be is important to some people. Giving of themselves to others is important to some people. I'm not really bothered if someone considers what I do of value or important. As the saying goes " those that matter don't care and those that care don't matter. It's not something I'm hung up about. Perhaps that's why find it a difficult concept to comprehend. I don't see people in terms of value and worth. Everyone has value in my eyes.

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  9. Atheism (a disbelief in God, whether you call yourself 'atheist' or not) demands you adhere to at least these two things:

    A) the universe doesn't have a cause

    B) existence is meaningless

    You say you don't believe in a God, yet you also say life has meaning. This contradicts your belief that there is no God.

    Anything you value, any happiness you've had, any legacy you've left, anything you've done for the betterment of humanity, anything at all - is ultimately futile from an atheistic perspective. You can give life its own meaning, but once you die, I die and everything is gone, the meaning suddenly vanishes. The meaning is gone and therefore was ultimately meaningless to begin with. Once everything is gone, none of it will matter.

    I'm liking what you're saying, doing things of value for other people - but this view and a disbelief in God aren't compatible.

    'Do we need purpose as in an overall plan from beginning to end... Not really, I believe we have opportunities, things happen, this helps shape and guide us. Being flexible is what helps us survive. I'm happy to go with the flow.'

    I agree...a lot. I've found the God of the Bible to be a free-will giving, dynamic God who engages with his people and their choices and meets them in their situations. I don't believe He moves everyone around as a ventriloquist - that wouldn't be free-will. 'Going with the flow,' that's very much been my experience of Christianity and life.

    Who created God? The Bible claims God is eternal and not created. By definition God is uncreated. Once you talk about a created-God you're not discussing the same thing Christians are aligning with.

    There's an understanding in philosophy that if you have the best explanation for something (i.e God and the origin of the universe) then you don't need an explanation, of the explanation. If you do you enter an infinite regress of explanations. Who created God, then who created that God, who created this God? - none whom could possibly be God 'cause they're all created.

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  10. Ok so. (a) The universe doesn't have a cause.
    No, it doesn't. To have a cause it would have to have been created with a particular purpose in mind, a goal to achieve. So no I don't believe it has. I don't believe it was created by a thinking, planning entity.

    (b) existence is meaningless,
    I you are talking about working towards some pre set course given to us by a creator with the universe working towards some final result or goal to achieve, then no I don't believe we exist to fulfil someone else's plans. I'm not sure I can see the earth still existing in its present state for eternity

    I disagree with your idea that anything we create cannot have meaning after we have gone. The penicillin that Alexander Fleming gave us is still being used an of value to our lives. If the time comes when the world stops using penicillin then its value has gone, but for now, it still has value. The same can be said about the God of the bible and Jesus. If they end up being like the other Gods such as Zeus, Thor, Mars. Then they have no meaning or value. Gods only have the power we give them. If we stop believing in them, they turn into legends and old folk law stories.

    Why is it not comparable to do things of value for others and not believe in God ?

    What do you think of other Gods ? The bible mentions other Gods so it seems acceptable that God acknowledges there are other Gods, he just considers himself more powerful and tells his people not to worship them. Where did these Gods come from, as, if God is the creator of everything then he must have created other Gods ? What about spirits like the ones Shaman encounter, where do they fit ?

    I belie there is some kind of force similar to a radio wave or magnetic force. Some kind of energy that we don't understand that in someway connects us together if we care to tap into it. My life experience has taught me this in such things as dreams coming true, meeting complete strangers and knowing things about them and willing things to happen. But I don't believe this is a thinking planning God as in the God of the bible and I don't believe the universe or ourselves had a thinking, planning creator. I don't believe in Gods that rule over us.

    I do believe there may be such a thing as reincarnation as I do believe we have a spirit but I don't believe in heaven or hell. I do believe there was a man called Jesus but I don't believe he was the son of a God as I don't believe in the existence of Gods outside the ones that humans create for themselves.

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  11. You could also look at it like this...
    As I don't believe in Gods then they have no value, meaning or purpose to me or my life. I'm here now, so have value now and I give myself meaning and purpose by my interaction with others and vice versa. To me, it doesn't matter if I don't have meaning when I'm dead, I won't be here to know so to want something of no meaning or value to me or others as I and they won't exist is meaningless and pointless. Only the person with an ego to feed wants to think the will still have meaning and value when they have gone.

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  12. look at it this way. A man goes into the wilderness and clears himself a piece if land. He builds a house and plants everything in the garden he wants and pulls up anything he doesn't want there. He plants veggies to et, flowers for the birds and bees, trees, a pond for water, a place to sit and relax and enjoy it all when he's tired. Everything in the garden has some use or value to the man, the creator (God)The bees make tasty honey and pollenate the flowers, dead leaves are home to insects and nourishing compost, trees are home to birds and so on. Everything was out there for a reason.
    Outside of this Garden there is still the wilderness. Plants still grow, insects still live, birds still sit in the trees. This is evolution, this is natural selection. Only things capable of growing and living where they are survive or move on. Bees still live and pollenate, birds still sing in the trees. There may be things living here not known to or living in the garden as only what the creator allows in the garden is in there. Some species have adapted and evolved to survive in the wilderness. This is the difference between those who believe they are living in the garden and those who believe we are living in a wilderness. If there are birds who are able to fly and live in both worlds who can see and understand what' going on, then only they or the creator will know for sure how life really is.
    Are we one small part of a vast wilderness of evolving life, or a tiny piece of creation. Either way, we know the earth is just a small rock floating round in space.

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