“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”
I’m going to have a good hard look here at this particular line
in Paul’s letter to the church in Rome, three verses that have brought
believers a lot of comfort and assurance of God’s love, but have also brought a
heck of a lot of debate and controversy. Because of possible significant
repercussions for other theology to be built from, this verse should be treated
with care and understood in light of what Paul is saying throughout the
letter’s argument to avoid nauseating and never ending conversations about
predestination and making God sound like a bit of an idiot.
At the centre of all of Paul’s thought is the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit is mentioned 35 times throughout and is undoubtedly the focus of
much of Paul’s attention to God’s working in the world. This is particularly
important for interpreting the text in hand with 21 of those appearances in
chapter 8 alone. So it would probably be sensible to read this passage with this
focus in mind as we try to get into Paul’s head on this one!
It is said that a prominent preacher during the first World
War was said to have claimed that Romans 8:28 was “the hardest verse in the
Bible to believe.” Paul seems confident that despite evidence that might suggest otherwise,
God is in the midst of the world working for its good. But obviously this raises
very difficult questions about the nature of God’s work within the world and
the issue of ultimate responsibility of suffering.
It would be a mistake to interpret this in two (perhaps
understandable) ways that lead to further problems. The first is to read that
Paul is saying ‘It will all come right in the end’ in some sort of universal
optimism, and that Paul is simply encouraging people to wait until everything
is good at some future moment. The second would be to read that Paul is
suggesting that all things, although often negative, are working to achieve a
positive goal in a cosmic “the end justifies the means” scenario. But this is
not a case of the universe working together for ultimate good in some
utilitarian sense, like God is manipulating cosmic events to teach us a lesson
or something. We have big problems then when we look at actual (not just
theoretical) suffering, events like divorce, death, abuse, genocide and
rejection. If we want to argue that God is somehow behind all that then we’ve
got a bit of a task on our hands!
In context of the chapter so far with a strong emphasis on
God in control of working within
creation to bring about His redemptive purposes, and acknowledging very real
present sufferings, I would probably suggest that the most coherent way of
understanding Paul’s argument would be to read this as “God is working in all
things, including seriously crap situations, to bring about good for those who
love Him.”
It is to say that God is involved within situations working
for good, rather than just using an optimistic and very general bumper-sticker
phrase to encourage positivity. Present sufferings are very real for Paul and
so he is being very careful to focus on God’s goodness. He continues to do this
in the following verses, but as we will see, this ‘goodness’ is really talking about God conforming believers into the
image of His Son, not a general remark about having good fortune. Working
for good is to made more like Jesus – the trials and sufferings are still just
as crappy, but God wastes none of it!
After this, Paul embarks on a description of what God has
done for the believer in Christ, reminding us that we lack nothing, we have
every spiritual blessing now. Pretty amazing stuff.
I would also suggest that Romans 8:28-30 also helps us to
reframe our ideas around suffering. Paul makes it clear in all his letters that
real suffering is inevitable, but goes on to explain that although suffering is
a very real and serious reality, it is not a hopeless reality. In fact it would
seem that it is central to imaging God and being ‘conformed to the image of His
Son.’ It is in connection with an acknowledgement of suffering that Paul writes
these verses and there it is within suffering that the Holy Spirit is working
within these things “for the good of those who love Him.”
Totsengard says it this way: “That is the journey on which
the sovereign God is taking us, a cruciform journey for Christ’s sake and in
Christ’s image, where the itinerary is by no means only on the heights, but
rather in the everyday depths near which we always find ourselves.”
God doesn’t leave us. God turns the crud into gold. We’re
made more like Jesus in our sufferings when we allow the Spirit to guide us
through it.
Mean.
If anyone wants the full essay hit me up. Here's Sunday's talk on this in engaging with James 1:
What about my Christian friend who had a lot of faith and believed God would help but eventually committed suicide because the struggle became to much. Where was God working for their good ?
ReplyDeleteAll this taught me was to find my own strength and work it out for myself. This person trusted God and put their life in his hands believing God would help him overcome his struggle but it all became to much for him to cope with. His struggle became to hard and he ended his life because he couldn't cope any more. I can't see a loving caring God in his life helping him and working for his good at all. I just see an empty space where my friend used to be. No one will ever convince me the God he believed in existed and was there for him when he needed him.
Yeah that's a tragedy. And I'm real sorry about that. I hope what's clear is that I never wanted suffering to remain a theoretical, abstract concept, but very real, including suicide. I've also had a friend who had faith and committed suicide too.
DeleteI've got no answers as to why God seems to help some and not others. Whether he does or not, is another issue. There have been times in which I felt God close helping me, and others when I felt He was nowhere to be seen. Part of dealing with a person, not a formula.
Suffering does seem to provide make or break moments for faith - to prove genuine. Now, I don't want to question your friend's faith AT ALL, but what I mean is, suffering provides crisis, and reveals where your hope is, or if you have any at all. I found the act of trust helped me to find God more. This isn't everyone's experience and I don't know why.
Obviously to answer your questions I would need more information, as the person I mentioned before maintained faith in God at least at an intellectual level, but still felt that committing suicide was the only option. Tragedy. Sorry, probably doesn't make anything clearer for you.
Also, as someone who claims to be a Christian, I would hold to the view that although the suicide was awful, that actually a hope that God can even turn something as awful as that into something hopeful is a reasonable belief. What that looks like is also a tricky one.
DeleteTo suggest God didn't help because his faith wasn't strong enough is an insulting cop out that gets used too often in my opinion and contradicts the saying that God doesn't give anyone more than they can handle. No disrespect but if you find it comforting to believe there is a God out there that's up to you but I personally just see that as a romantic idea that people cling to in the hope of something better. The old " who knows why God helps some and not others" doesn't really cut it for me. I simply believe its part of life. One person may recover from cancer and not another because it may have been caught earlier or they were fitter and stronger to start with, responded better to treatment or perhaps another reason but not that God chose to save one and not another.
DeleteI believe if my friend had more faith in himself and his own ability to overcome his battles instead of waiting for an absent God to step in, then things would have been different and he would have lived. He waited for God instead of doing it himself. Be careful what you preach as in some cases it can be dangerous.
I really don't think you and I are saying much that's at odds with each other. I totally agree it's a cop out, and that's why I explicitly said "I don't want to question your friend's faith AT ALL" but wanted to say that crisis is a make or break moment. It doesn't make it better or worse in erms of faith, it just is what it is. I have experienced both, so I am in no place to claim superiority. So there is no way I would mean that as an insult.
DeleteYou're totally free to believe it's just a romantic idea. I'm only speaking form my own experience and engaging with what the bible seems to be saying.
And I agree for natural causes with things like cancer. I didn't even talk about that, you've just imported a new idea. Fair though, yes suffering is random - I wouldn't dispute that. Bad things just happen. And the fact we both agree on that means we just disagree on how God is ACTUALLY involved. Obviously not a one dimensional "God saves the day" model. Something else. If it sounds like nonsense to you, fine.
Be careful what I preach because it can be dangerous? In this case maybe you should be careful how you interpret what I'm saying before you infer the wrong meaning. Bad things happen, God doesn't cause them, but God is involved, and trust in Him has the power to change us through suffering.
I'm not saying anything about supernatural healings, people lacking faith and being worse people.
How was your friend expecting God to help him in his struggles?
He didn't know how God was going to help, he just believed that he would.
DeleteIf what you say is open to misinterpretation then perhaps you should be more clear in your intentions to avoid that. I'm just saying what I believe and that's in my friends case I don't believe there was a God working for any good even though he loved and trusted there was a God doing so. I just can't believe there is a God. I don't want to soil his death by getting into an argument about it so will end this discussion here. I was just stating my personal opinion as I saw it. We are both free to believe and interpret as we like. Good day to you sir.
BTW Sam,
DeleteI would just like to mention that my original referral to being careful about what you preach was meant as Christians in general as I strongly believe that whoever convinced my friend to believe that God would in some way do something about his situation and encouraged him to put his time and effort into praying to God and believing that only God could help made a big mistake that cost a life. It tore me apart watching him helplessly do nothing but pray until it all became to much and he couldn't take any more. I strongly believe if he had some belief in his own ability and capability then he would have at least tried to do something towards changing his situation and given himself something to work towards as a light at the end of a very dark tunnel.
This is my opinion as I saw it.
Oh okay gotcha. Yeah totally bro. And I'm potentially more angry than you when it comes to beliefs that oppress people, and kick them when they're down. The Destiny Church theology is stuff like "Poverty is a curse, you should experience financial blessing as a Christian, and you'll get that by giving more!" Obviously reaaaaaaaally crap for the poor to hear.
DeleteSounds like the theology that your friend was being fed was unhelpful, and that's why I like to talk about this stuff so that we don't offer stupid interpretations of God that make life WORSE for people.
People with these sorts of unhelpful ideas usually mean well though, they're just not aware that there are better and more accurate ways of reading scripture.
Cheers for getting involved!
Or even better get to know the person and the situation to fully understand what's going on before randomly quoting scripture to a person you hardly know in a situation you know little about. As you agree, good intent, enthusiasm and a little knowledge can be very dangerous in some situations. I'm pleased we can agree on some things and not let our differences cause friction as in the case with some atheist and religious, particularly Christians it would seem. I look at it as we are all people trying to do things the best we know how so shouldn't criticise for that, although I may like to question and give an opinion from time to time and although just like you I can be passionate about my beliefs and there will be times when that that comes out, But know that i come in peace a mean no harm.
DeleteI believe that although we sit on different sides of the fence we both have one big important thing in common that can overcome that. We both care very deeply about humanity and both in our own ways give something of ourselves in our every day life to make a difference in a good way to others.
I respect you for that and only wish there wore more people on all sides who could look at the common good we share and use this to work together for the common good of humanity rather than highlight our differences and highlight them to cause trouble and divide. Perhaps bringing a little more tolerance, understanding and harmony between different beliefs is something I can work on.
Thanks for taking the time to listen.
Atheist Unite, I suspect we flat in the same house my friend.
ReplyDeleteIt's was a tragedy what happen to your friend and I admire that you can be so calm about it. He was indeed very strong in his belief that God would step in and do something. It was such a shame things ended as they did.
I'm with you that whoever persuaded him there was a God in control who he could trust and rely on has a lot to answer for. It's people's lives they are dealing with, just saying they meant well when their preaching played such a large part in someone's death is shocking, they should be answerable to someone. These people play a similar role to therapists and counsellors when what they preach impacts on how people live their lives and what they believe. Instead of seeking professional or trying for himself, he sat back and waited for God believing something would happen. He was convinced he was dependent on God and would be rewarded for having such strong faith. What a waste of a young life.
This just proves to me your friend like so many others had been brainwashed and fooled into believing there was a God. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain that the reason he got no help was because there is no God.
It should be a crime what happened when this fulse belief leads to death. He probably would still be alive today if he hadn't been told to give it to God and that God answers prayers instead of being told to start making changes for himself.
Some people have an awful lot to answer to.
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI'd encourage you to read Sam's comments above, as this type of issue was explored:
"Sounds like the theology that your friend was being fed was unhelpful, and that's why I like to talk about this stuff so that we don't offer stupid interpretations of God that make life WORSE for people."
The issue wasn't whether God exists (which on a side-note is an impossible, intellectually dishonest claim - I can give you many evidences for God) but rather unhelpful teachings about suffering - opposed to more helpful, biblical ones.
Ben Wilson
ReplyDeleteI don't deny that Sam agreed that people need to take care in what they preach. I was simply reinforcing the seriousness of the consequences in this case.
My opinion of their being no God is a valid one held by millions of people worldwide and may I say an opinion held by some of the worlds most intelligent people as research shows that around 80% of scientists do not believe in the existence of a Gos and indeed statistics show that the more intelligent a person, the less likely they are to believe in a God.
Where is your proof, other than your opinion that God exists ? I'm not the one making claimed that something exists and trying to persuade people to worship, pray, donate moneyto and indeed give their life to something and telling them how to live their lives according to my beliefs.
Indeed your religion, your books and your preachers do that. I would say the onus is on you tooting what is being preached is true and correct. Until then, people are quite within their rights to challenge it. When Christians stop evangelizing, knocking on doors, handing out flyers, going into schools and preaching their beliefs in such a was as fact rather than a personal belief then people may stop publicly challenging it. I sar am just as entitled to express my beliefs as you are.
I'd like to see those statistics and where they came from. The founders of modern science (Galileo, Isaac Newton) were indeed Christian, who set out to do science with the knowledge that God and science compliment each other, not contradict.
ReplyDeleteThe claim 'the more intelligent a person, the less likely they are to believe in a God' is inaccurate on a basic level (again I'd like to see your source). As I just mentioned, the founding fathers of science believed in God. Many close friends of mine are atheist, yet they don't have the same intellect as the Christians I know. Many of our timeless writers and best professional thinkers are Christian (such as Alvin Plantinga, arguably the world's leading philosopher).
Conversely a different study (http://www.academia.edu/3699228/Ribberink_Achterberg_Houtman_2013) shows that in highly religious countries, people of higher academic position tend to be atheist, while in secular countries the people attracted to intellectual positions tend to be religious.
You first made the claim that God doesn't exist - so it would be expected that you support your claim, which you're still yet to do. Here is mine:
On the note of intelligence: if naturalism is true and evolution is simply a mechanism to select for survival, then your brain would be little more than a collection of matter accumulated by an unguided, blind process. Darwinism doesn't select for truth or intellect, only survival. Without a God behind it then natural selection undermines any credence you can give to our thoughts, as they'd be unreliable. So from your point of view - the arguments you're giving me are fundamentally flawed because you have no grounding on which to trust your intellect.
Obviously the same doesn't apply to me, as my worldview allows for a God who created natural selection and therefore my intellect has a credible grounding.
For many years it was dangerous to be an atheist, just not allowed. Look at the dark ages where people were burnt at the stake as witches. Galileo was under house arrest for heracy because his discoveries conflicted with the bible. If he didn't believe in God be would probably have been thrown in a dungeon or killed. It has only been relatively recent history when persecution for admitting being an atheist or agnostic has been mild. I
ReplyDeletehave an atheist friend in the US who has been spat on,
hurrassed at work and even lost his job for being an
atheist. In some parts of the world atheists and agnostics
are still hated for their disbelief in a deity
It is now safer for people such as Einstein, Darwin to admit to their beliefs. I have read in various places including Wikipedia that the majority of scientists today are agnostic or atheist. Some quote only around 30% believe in a supreme being.
Galileo's scientific discoveries conflict with the Bible. There was nothing unbiblical about his findings - only the churches reaction to them.
ReplyDeleteAtheists have been around for a long time, in different countries and cultures - from Ancient Greece, Rome and obviously beyond. Persecution then was also mild. There's inherently 'new' about the new atheists.
I'd be hesitant to get my sources from wikipedia. While it's usually okay, anyone is pretty much free to change the information.
You still haven't given me your sources for the statistics earlier, your own evidence for God's non-existence or even a response to mine.
Sorry, Galileo's scientific discoveries *didn't* conflict with the Bible.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, evolution is about being able to adapt to ones environment in order to survive. As humans we often lack the speed, strength and otherqualities of some creatures so we developed our brains more than our brawn so to speak. We learnt to use tools, we noticed things around us and started remembering to help us learn and discover new and sometimes better ways of doing things. Deferent creatures developed their own way to hunt, hide, outrun, protect themselves in order to survive and feed themselves.each unique way helped develop and refine. The part of the body humans developed best was their brain. The grounding on which I trust my intellect is scientific proof, personal experience and evidence.
ReplyDeleteYou however trust in people's interpretation of a single book full of contradictions and relying on miracles as an explanation. I don't find that convincing at all.
Well the Catholic church who were the ones that created the bible by translating scripture and decided what scripture went into creating the bible thought that Galileos discoveries conflicted with the bible because of such verses as Psalm 93:1, 96:30, 1 Chronicles 16:30, included text stating that " the world is firmlyestablished, it cannot be moved" Psalm104:5 "the lordset the earth on it's foundations, it can never be moved"Ecclesiastes 1:5 states "and the sun rises and sets and returnes to it's place"
ReplyDeleteIt was the catholic church, not me, who thought Galileo contradicted the bible. They wrote the book so I would guess knew better than anyone else it's meaning.
I don't recall relying on miracles as an explanation for biblical verity. What I do rely on is the Bible's authenticity as a historical document (though probably not the first nine chapters of Genesis) and the historical legacy it and the people entailed have left - which historians across the board attribute tremendous weight to:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=J0UIbd0eLxw#t=2199 (linked to the desired section)
http://www.biblicalhistorians.com/translation-myths.html
http://www.everystudent.com/features/bible.html#4
There's a reason the verses you referenced aren't taken literally. A psalm, is a song. Songs have little interest in scientific statements. The verse in 1 Chronicles you noted comes from a passage in the book named 'David's Psalm of Thanks'. Likewise Ecclesiastes is a book of poetry written by David's son, Solomon. Genre, author's intent, context and history are obviously critical when reading the Bible.
"The grounding on which I trust my intellect is scientific proof, personal experience and evidence."
What you're saying doesn't change the conclusion of my argument. The very rationality you're using is undermined by your worldview that God doesn't exist (John Gray, who's also an atheist made the same point). Your grounds for trusting anything can be brought into serious question as you have no foundation of objectivity. The belief that your intellect is cemented in "scientific proof, personal experience and evidence," is itself untrustworthy, as your brain is merely a network of chemical reactions that weren't meant to account for truth. The very notion you're entertaining now that 'God doesn't exist' is not a question your mind was equipped to ask or even answer.
Hilarious, you rely on the bibles authenticity but not the first nine chapters they say God created the earth but you do believe God created the earth I presume just not the bibles version. Talk about cherry picking.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the bible is an historical book that tells the story and legends of a group of people according to the primitive knowledge and understanding available to them but do not believe their conclusion to be accurate. I put it in the same category as Maori myths and legends. I don't see the story of God being real.
Not saying I have the answers any more than they did, just that I can't believe the bibles version of the world. Nothing inside me or any reasoning makes me in any way think the God of the bible or any superior, thinking, planning being deliberately created the earth and has a plan for it.
Indeed, if God were real and has the power allotted to him according to the bible then I find his reasoning quite brutal. Why create a world with so many natural disasters that create so much suffering to it's inhabitants. Why so many countries with droughtt conditions and let so many starve to death and watch and do nothing yet insist on being praised and worshiped. The bible says he can because he is God and is above question. The God if the bible has a narcissistic personality given to him by man as he was created by man for man in my opinion by people who has no idea of how the world worked so the idea of Gods as higher beings was a popular belief.
Did a big bang creat the earth as we know it and will a similar incidence one day end it. This is far more plausible to me than the existence of Gods. Or perhaps threaten has been visited at at various times in history by extra terrestrials from another galaxy. Who knows. Again, more plausible than the God of the bible.
Your theological views are indistinguishable from the new atheists'. I wouldn't recommend getting theological questions and ideas from minds like Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens. They're biblical knowledge is highly surface-level - they're not theologians. I've never met an atheist who's actually had a good grasp, or much of any on theology. Everything you wrote shows me you come from a place of little biblical understanding and knowledge. For instance:
ReplyDeleteYou assume I'm cherry-picking. Do you remember what i said about genre? Genesis is a creation story in the same vein of the ones in other cultures that came near the same time (Mesopotamia, Egypt). It obviously isn't meant to be a scientific journal of the world's creation. There would be little point in writing that for a people c2500 years ago with no scientific knowledge. Study it more deeply and you'll it's find it's a clever refute of other creation stories, polytheism, and adapts the style they used but with a monotheistic God. Kind of like a cheeky slap in the face.
Genesis creationism is a recent concept. The idea of the world being 6000 years has only been popular the last few hundred years. Even the the early church fathers didn't take the creation story at face value. You could have discovered this information by yourself - and going forward I would expect you to before making theological claims.
"The God if the bible has a narcissistic personality given to him by man as he was created by man for man in my opinion by people who has no idea of how the world worked so the idea of Gods as higher beings was a popular belief."
Again, you don't have the information to make that claim. You would need to be omniscient.
You know that everything in the universe is created from something else (trees come from seeds, people are made from the sediment of dead stars) but when it comes to the universe itself, you'll stop there and claim it doesn't have a cause. That isn't logically consistent. As the cosmological argument says:
1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. Therefore the universe has a cause
That's a logical evidence for God.
You still haven't given me those statistics either, nor have you refuted my former evidence. Unless you can refute it, it remains then that your atheism undermines your own rationality - and the arguments you just gave are as well fundamentally unsound.
My theological views are my own, I was taught the bible at the Christian schools I attended and at the churches I attended but disliked that we were told what to believe and not allowed to think and interprate for ourselves. Any fresh ideas from a different perspective were simply ignored and not permitted. If it wasn't in the study notes it wasn't allowed.
ReplyDeleteI have a strong dislike for being told how and what to think and for copying others ideas. My thoughts are my own, I am perfectly capable of reading and researching the bible for myself. I will not be told what to think and believe but am capable of drawing my own conclusions.
Can't copy and paste links on this tiny device I'm using right now, my flat was broken into and laptop along with other stuff was stolen.
Tell me, as a Christian, do you believe the bible to be the word of God ? It sounds as though you don't but rather mans writing about events as he sees them. If this is the case why would you think these men have it correct ?
I also don't see why everything that exists has to have a cause ?
It doesn't have to. There is no law that says things can't exist without a cause.
Going back to the original post here.
ReplyDeleteTry telling the mother of the young man who committed suicide that God was working for the good in her sons life and death and as long as God is glorified through it in some way then her sons suffering and death was for a good cause. Don't think she would agree with you on that one. But that is the message most Christians like to preach. All glory to God and all that. Wonder how many parents would let their kids suffer so they can somehow be glorified through it. That's not really the kind loving actions of a father that loves his child is it. But when it comes to your God it's perfectly ok, no questions asked because it's God and he's above questioning.
Well I had questions that no one can answer. The magic holy spirit seems to vanish when its really needed and only appears in stories not in reality.
The bible talks about being righteous but to be righteous one would take responsibility for ones actions. The death of Jesus doesn't allow for that so holds humanity forever captive and under the service of God in way of payment. No fair judgement, serve and obey God because Jesus died for our sins or forever burn in hell. What if you've never done anything seriously bad, you don't deserve to go to hell so you didn't need Jesus death on your behalf so your free. You don't need Gods grace so not bound over to serve him. They don't like to point that out when they preach the bible unless they believe in the old origional sin story where we are still being unfairly punished.
My intellect tells me it's all nonsense like the fairy tales by the brothers Grimm. I don't need to study theology to work this out but rather people need theology to find a way to make it sound credible. People are not as gullible these days so theology has to work harder at making the bible sound credible.
This of course is just my humble opinion.
"I also don't see why everything that exists has to have a cause ?
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't have to. There is no law that says things can't exist without a cause."
As I illustrated, everything in the universe has a cause in something else. That's consistent. It wouldn't seem reasonable then to say the universe itself doesn't have one; due to its ridiculous complexity, improbability and architectural accuracy. It is therefore logical that the universe has a cause, and the only thing that could initiate something like that, is a God.
The essence of Christianity is the opposite of what you just said. I've found it to be freedom from shame, oppression and judgment.
I don't know what you've been taught, but your thoughts don't sound anything recognizable to what the God of the Bible teaches and his character - a point in case why theology is important. Simply because you have a theology, doesn't mean it's biblically sound or accurate. Again I don't know what they were telling you at that school, or even how you processed it the way you have, but that's why it's vital the church has a good grasp on the Bible - so to avoid unbiblical ideas like you've possibly heard.
"My intellect tells me it's all nonsense like the fairy tales by the brothers Grimm."
On top of that and the straw man argument you just indulged (taking an opponents position and twisting it slightly so it's something refutable, hoping the audience or opponent won't notice; in this case comparing God to a fairy tale - there is evidence for God as I've continually shown, but none for a fairy tale), your cognitive processes still remain under scrutiny as you have no reason to believe the thoughts you've put to writing in light of your worldview.
Everything in the universe affects something else but doesn't necessarily have a particular cause. If the land is covered in trees creatures, plants come and live in the forest. If a farmer comesand clears the land the animals either find another forest to live in, die of starvation or adapt to living on the farmed land. The farmer didn't plan to affect the animals in such a way and new creatures come along and live on the new habitat. None of this is planned but it happens. Should the land have stayed as forest or was it right for the farmer to change the landscape and affect nature in such a way. Fact is it happened. Change happens, either planned or randomly.
ReplyDeleteRandom things can happen, one species eats al the grass and there's not enough left to feed another so one species dies out, becomes extinct, another species adapts to be able to eat something else or moves away.
It's random, not planned or created.
Theology teaches the point of view that it wants you to have and ignores other viewpoints. It focuses on that which supports it's teaching. Churches preach what they want you to hear and don't allow anything that leads towards a different perspective.
I'm sorry but your argument does not convince me there is a God. It just makes me think your stuck in a mindset that everything must be planned, organized and created for a purpose and not at all open to the possibility evolving from random happenings and going with the flow.
It seems we both think very differently and interpret things differently. Thats ok, nothing says we have to agree. If there is a God he forgot to do something that would make it possible for people like me able to believe he's real.
Perhaps it's a personality type or a way or thinking hat's not catered for as I'm not alone in not being convinced he's real.
You have said nothing able to convince me.
As you don't seem able to understand me or my persecutive it's very doubtful you are capable of saying anything to change my mind.
ReplyDeleteI find that churches are run by theologians who like their flock of sheep to be obedient and just sit, listen and agree with every word they say.
ReplyDeleteThey don't cater for challenging minds and different personalities. They have a recipe and stick to it catering only for that taste. I think the idea of a God attracts certain personalities and serves them. It's not for me.
Many of my close friends have the same line of thought as you. I recognise your opinion to be valid and worth hearing, but that is not the same as being correct or logically consistent. Indeed, your comments have shown a misunderstanding of my arguments. We're clearly not on the same page. That's why I've had to re-state and elaborate in detail more than once. You however did not provide evidence for the impossibility of God and continued to evade one of my main arguments which refutes your reasoning.
ReplyDeleteI feel anything further would be fruitless so I'm going to stop here.
Maybe we'll talk again sometime :)
I never said it was impossible for God to exist but that I find it impossible to believe he exists. I find it quite plausible that dragons and fairies once existed. Given the power and authority God Is supposed to have I would expect to find more evidence of him than some people's theory so I do not believe through lack of evidence that he exists.
ReplyDeleteFarewell