Gotta love community sometimes.
The best nights we have at church are the nights when we get to laugh together, to make fun of ourselves and enjoy each other's company. This has always been the way for our Young Adults group, and as you can hear from this recording, this was us back in form. Afterwards we all headed down to a pub down the road and hung out longer than usual.
I think that's what I love most about church, and why I will look back on Sunday with fondness. Sure, we talked about some important stuff, but the way we did it was the coolest bit.
Love this group. IN A BIG WAY.
Not single so didn't listen...
ReplyDeleteYou make church sound like one big happy family not the experience I had when I gave it a go.
Perhaps its a family you need to be born into and grow up in to be part of. Church I went to was really uncomfortable. People sit in rows in the same seat every week facing the front and listening to someone preach, there was prayers and singing. Then everyone piled into the café and sat in the same groups around the same tables every week chatting and drinking coffee. I gave up and left after about a year. I tried joining in but was never socially accepted. Even when I volunteered people would stay with their existing friendships and I was always the loner of the group.I didn't like the way it made me feel. The longer I went the lonelier it made me feel as week after week I saw the same faces. People smiled and sometimes said hello. They became familiar but remained unknown.I had a better relationship with God before I went to church than I did while I was going because people tried to convince me my relationship with him should be like their experience of him. Also they were suspicious of my relationship with God. I had gone all my life being able to talk to him and understand him and often acted on things I knew he was telling me to do with the most amazing results. The church I went to tried to stifle that telling me I didn't have the authority to do or say things I did. They said I hadn't been trained to do the things I did and I couldn't recite every chapter and verse of the bible.
I told them I didn't need to be able to recite every chapter and verse because if I could I would tell people what I thought they needed to hear. Instead, God put into my head what he knew people needed to hear, be it a verse from the bible or something else on a more personal level. My ignorance was my strength as it meant I didn't put my thoughts forward but instead would remain quiet and open to what God was saying and relay his message. I had grown up knowing God. I could feel his unmistakable presence when he was close and feel him in my heart. It was as though I was tuned into his frequency, his presence, his heart and mine came together at times.
The church didn't like this, didn't understand this and some told me it wasn't real and just kept telling me to read my bible as if that's the only way to know God. This was unhelpful to me and my relationship with God and left me confused as I expected people at church to be experts in communicating with God and I was pretty sure at the beginning God had sent me there because he had plans to use me there. I felt he was going to do something great there and he had given me gifts that were needed as part of those plans. I knew I needed to grow a little more but felt the time was soon when he was going to make me bloom and bear fruit, lots and lots and lots of fruit.
I was snubbed and ignored because I was unknown. I wasn't supposed to be the one with a message because no one had given me authority to speak. My inside was shouting "GOD CHOOSES WHO DOES WHAT, NOT YOU" God had chosen me.
I found this hugely frustrating and annoying. In the end I thought perhaps I was wrong as they are the specialists not me. They should know better and recognise God better than me. They said anything coming from God needed to be tested. Perhaps I failed the test and it wasn't God. At one point I thought I heard God tell me to walk away as you can talk to people but you can't make them listen.
It's gone now and I have no desire to go back to church. Even God seems to have gone. he might come back one day if he ever has plans for me again. I will know him if he does, he has an unmistakable presence when he is near that grows the closer he gets. . I just hope he never sends me to church again as its a family you need to have grown up in to be accepted as part of it. I felt so unwelcome ther
It's funny, but if I ever feel the need to talk to someone about faith and God (sometimes I do) the only people I know well enough and comfortable enough with to talk about such things with are people that don't believe in God. I don't really find this very helpful. I never got to know anyone at church who was the sort of person I could speak openly to and as the only contact I had with anyone was through church and not on a personal level. Now I don't go I have no contact with any Christians. I try talking to people on the net but its difficult as often atheists reply as a lot of Christians like to avoid those deep challenging questions. Also many questions just go unanswered and it takes many comments over a long period of time to say what could be discussed in 20 mins in a proper face to face conversation. The plus side is sometimes you get to read many other points of view but some can be extreme and end up being off putting. I never found a group at the church where one could just talk about and discuss in a drop something that's on your mind and causing you problems with faith. There was never a time or place to be able to say to a bunch of people "Hey, I'm really struggling with this and its becoming a stumbling block, what do you you think" . My stumbling block few into a mountain that pushed me away into another direction. It's only on the very odd occasion these days that I think back to experiences in life that at the time I thought was God and still think it could have been. I try communicating with Christians on blogs, FB to try and sort it out without success as people just see drifters like me as trolls rather than a genuine person searching for answers. The people I get to talk to in depth face to face are atheist who have explained the bible as mans early attempt to explain a world he didn't understand so believed there must have been a God, a higher force who understood how the world worked and made things happen. Other friends share their thoughts and experiences of how we as people are connected to each other and its us that has the power and makes this happen and what I thought was God was actually myself. It's all good food for thought and has shifted my thinking from believing it was God. I don't know any more. It's ultimately down to me to decide what I believe and if I want to believe and follow through on my beliefs or just carry on with life as it it. I do sometimes wish things could have worked out different at church and I'd found a place to tit in and people to discus my niggles with. A church isn't a place I feel comfortable to be in as I don't trust the people in them anymore so don't know what to do to resolve my situation. I have no idea why I'm even here writing this but something inside me desires for someone to read it and understand.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I feel so confused and ask God if he is real to give me a sign. I know that's not going to happen. But the days when I could just believe are well and truly gone.
ReplyDeleteI'm truly sorry that's been your experience of church. The church you went to sounds rather 'elitist'. Theological degrees and training (whatever that means). In my experience, and the experiences I've had at Windsor Park Young Adults, nobody deserves to be told their relationship with God and personal story is invalid and 'untrained'.
ReplyDeleteWe call ourselves 'elephant' for a reason. Stories like your's are the ones we seek to engage with and hear out - the ones that aren't always easy.
I'd recommend giving the podcast a listen. It's about more than singleness, but the positives and negatives of both a married and single life - whichever you choose for yourself.
Thanks Ben, I did listen. I'm happy with my relationship with my partner. He's not perfect but I love him and can live with his imperfections and I think he would probably say the same about me. I'm happier with him than I would be without him so and think what we have is worth working at to keep.
ReplyDeleteSounds like your happy at your church. It's an experience I'm not willing to repeat though. The one I went to was good at talking it up and a great experience if you were part of the right crowd. I not that young so wouldn't fit into a young adult community and the adult community tends to be more established and set in its ways. My partner isn't into going to church and I just found the whole experience a lonely one. Sitting alone watching established groups of people sitting together chatting wasn't much fun. I ended up with a few personal problems as well and left as the loneliness I felt at church was making it worse. I found some great people who became good friends who helped, encouraged and stuck by me. I'm very loyal to them because of this. They don't believe in God. I had a strong passion for Jesus that I think about at times but these days my life experience has taught me there is no God. I question it from time to time and talk to my friends about it but don't know any Christians to talk to so I look online and find groups and blogs like this one. Hope you don't mind.
I'm never going back to church though. Long story and not a pleasant one, plus I need to stay away from it. The whole thing just drags me down even just thinking and talking about it. I don't trust churches and never will. I'm not open to being someone's latest good deed or convert so they can brag and get a pat on the back and Im not open to being told I'm broken and need fixing by God. Keep telling someone they are broken and a sinner and they need healing and eventually they believe it and start acting like it. I'm neither.
Maybe one day ill meet a Christian who becomes a friend and I will have someone to talk to properly about this stuff instead of pestering people on the Internet. Thanks for your patience.
Nah don't mind at all! Appreciate the honesty. Don't feel like your pestering, that ain't how it is here.
ReplyDeleteIf you have any niggling questions of any sort, I and the rest of the writing team would be happy to give answers :)
Thanks Ben,
ReplyDeleteI have questions, heaps of questions and things that I have issues with that have all pushed me away from believing there is a God. I think the first thing that made me question if God was real was unanswered prayers. I don't mean trivial prayers or impossible miraculous prayers, but twice in my life there were things happening that had severe consequences. Both times I felt abandoned by God. Not just because my prayers went unanswered but also because of the lack of help and support. Both times it was a long lonely struggle getting, not just getting through but rebuilding my life. All is good now and I have people in my life that are there now if I ever need support again so I no longer feel lonely. But it also taught me that I can do it alone without the aide of God and without people for that matter. Although, support of loving caring people in your life makes it a whole lot easier to get through the toughest struggles. It's the feeling that someone is there spurring you on and encouraging you that makes all the difference, knowing your not alone. It's true that love makes the world go round. When people feel loved it produces goodness in them. Loving kindness grows kind loving people. This I have found is not unique to Christianity and its teachings, Jesus was not he first to promote this philosophy. So although I agree with this teaching, I see Jesus as one of many promoting this, so again this makes me question the authenticity of the bible. To understand the OT fully one has to look at it from a Jewish point of view as after all, it is their teachings. The OT is their history as their people saw it at the time. Hell for example is simply Hedes, meaning the grave. It was Christianity that changes it's meaning to the pit of fire run by satan that people get thrown into. The original pit of fire was a place on the outskirts of town where unclaimed bodies were thrown into and burnt. Often dead criminals from jail, dead lepers, outcasts and so on. It was a cheap easy way of getting rid of the bodies. Plus burning diseased bodied was hygienically practical. My limited experience of church found it insincere which made me question if God really did change lives, leading to me probing much deeper not only into the bible, it's meaning and origin but also into humanity in general.
I also struggle with the idea that Jesus is a saviour. What and who exactly is he saving us from. I don't see the normal everyday person as someone who has done something terrible enough to warrant going to hell for eternity as a punishment after death. My own experience for example and that of friends I have talked to is that often if we have done something not so good, we feel awful and beet ourselves up about it. If I think I have said or done something that may hurt someone I feel terrible about it for days and have to put things right with them. I could never break the law and commit a crime as my conscience just wouldn't let me. The fact there are people in jail is proof not everyone is like this. The fact they are in jail means they are being punished, do these people need to be punished twice, in life and in death and do all crimes warrant hell as a punishment ? I think not.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the bible a man who commits adultery is punishable by death (hell). Yet today's society would be outraged at such a punishment. Just which crimes do people go to hell for ? Has the average person committed these crimes ? If not, then they don't need Jesus and to be saved. I personally don't think any of my friends or family have done anything that warrants hell as a punishment so question the need for Jesus as a saviour in the first place.
I have many more questions and issues that make me question if God is real.
People say God changes lives. How ?
ReplyDeleteWhat is antique about God that changes lives in a way nothing else can ?
I don't mean this in a harsh way, but I trusted God and feel my trust was betrayed as I feel let down by him. My trust in him has gone. Like all trust, it's often easy to smash and be broken and sometimes impossible to be rebuilt. I can't trust that God is real anymore so need a lot of convincing.
Don't know that it's God I'm looking far but rather my spirituality. I'm also exploring Hinduism and Buddhism for starters. Both have aspects that I'm drawn to and can relate to. I'm a very spiritual person so want to develop this. I'm looking for my spiritual awakening.
ReplyDelete"When people feel loved it produces goodness in them. Loving kindness grows kind loving people. This I have found is not unique to Christianity and its teachings, Jesus was not he first to promote this philosophy. So although I agree with this teaching, I see Jesus as one of many promoting this, so again this makes me question the authenticity of the bible."
ReplyDeleteIf Jesus truly was God (as he claimed, so we need to consider it) then he would be part of the most intelligent, all-knowing being in existence. If this all-knowing being created humans, He would know one of our needs is love - a characteristic of the God of the Bible. It claims we're created in his image - and therefore share his desire for love and companionship. If this was indeed true, it would come naturally that humanity itself would campaign the need for love and therefore reflect the desire God had given them.
"Hell for example is simply Hedes, meaning the grave. It was Christianity that changes it's meaning to the pit of fire run by satan that people get thrown into. The original pit of fire was a place on the outskirts of town where unclaimed bodies were thrown into and burnt."
There's a lot of different theology as to what exactly 'Hell' is. As you said, it's typically been portrayed as a pit of fire, though that's not necessarily true. Works like Dante Alighieri's 'The Divine Comedy' participated in popularising the idea of Hell as a fiery place - though this wasn't always the line of thought and isn't what I align with. Some say it's an empty space absent of God, some say it's simply non-existence. Who knows.
"I also struggle with the idea that Jesus is a saviour. What and who exactly is he saving us from. I don't see the normal everyday person as someone who has done something terrible enough to warrant going to hell for eternity as a punishment after death."
ReplyDelete"Just which crimes do people go to hell for ? Has the average person committed these crimes ? If not, then they don't need Jesus and to be saved. I personally don't think any of my friends or family have done anything that warrants hell as a punishment so question the need for Jesus as a saviour in the first place."
If God is a maximally-great being, he would marvelously excellent, faultless, limitless in intellect and perfect by nature. Humanity by nature has great potential for heinous crimes, and sometimes go through with them. It's not necessarily what's been done, it's our human nature that departs us from this excellent being. Almost like we're born with it (though it's not the same with babies).
If I create something that looks like me (say a snowman) it may have some of my characteristics, my charming smile and my ravenous good-looks - but it will never live up to me. Never be as elegant, praiseworthy, or functional as I am.
In the same way, we cannot match God. Which is obvious enough, considering we're not omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. God can only allow that which is like him by nature. That's where Jesus comes in. For humanity to live next to an eternal, excellent God, it would need to be faultless and untarnished like Him. If God Himself were to die in place of humanity - they would have insurance. They would still have potential for evil, but the brand they inherit simply by being human would be lifted. Relationship with Him would be open, and now a perfect God could converse and enjoy companionship with an imperfect people.
And of course, Jesus (being God), the inventor of physics and crafter of galaxies - in all His craziness decided humanity was worth dying for. That's why we call him 'Saviour'.
"People say God changes lives. How ?
What is unique about God that changes lives in a way nothing else can ?"
Similar to what I said above; God is an, all-knowing being, all-seeing, ever present being. He's free to use whatever he sees fit. From personal experience, God's used the aid of many people (strangers and friends) to meet me in my situation. You see the same theme in the Bible - God using people who think they're small and worthless to do amazing things (think Moses, Joseph, David or Esther). I see what goes on in the Bible and I see the same thing in my own life. It makes sense to me.
Also they're have been times when God's been silent. I've done what you have, prayed and prayed only to trudge on without scarcely a hope. Trying times, but I've gotten through every one of them. Similar to how a parent watches a baby walk. The parent may not be holding its hand, but it sure as hell is watching it closely.
Well......
ReplyDeleteI'm a great believer in that if something is meant to be, it will happen. That we are drawn towards our destiny and things, people come our way to help guide us there. I have been searching for something to enrich and grow me spiritually. Something I can trust and believe in. I have been searching for a few years now. My experience at the church I attended, lack of response from the Christian groups similar to this has confirmed to me that Christianity is not where I belong. The failur to be able to engage and connect with Christians in person at the church and in discussion groups has confirmed this to me.
I seem to have found acceptance and people who warmly engage in discussion both in person and in groups similar to this who have welcomed and inspired me elsewhere. One of the great things about living in a multicultural country is the diverseity of wisdom each culture brings. There seems to be a flourish of people coming my way encouraging me to believe in my inner self and to meditate on that. To be open and receptive to what's coming my way and be guided by that. And that, The sages of India observed thousands of years ago that our destiny is ultimately shaped by our deepest intentions and desires. "You are what your deepest desire is. As your desire is, so is your intention. As your intention is, so is your will. As your will is, so is your deed. As your deed is, so is your destiny.”
This inspires me, it keeps coming my way and is drawing me closer to it. I think this sort of teaching is where I belong, it's calling me, it wants me and has a place for me.... If that makes sense
Thanks for your input, but I didn't fit into Christianity because it wasn't where I belonged. I see that now. Thanks for helping to point that out to me :)
Sorry Ben, think I replied at the same time as you...
ReplyDelete"In the same way, we cannot match God. Which is obvious enough, considering we're not omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. God can only allow that which is like him by nature. That's where Jesus comes in."
"They would still have potential for evil, but the brand they inherit simply by being human would be lifted. Relationship with Him would be open, and now a perfect God could converse and enjoy companionship with an imperfect people."
I think there is a flaw here. If God created us as imperfect then he has to accept us as imperfect and be willing to converse with us as we are. Otherwise we were created to automatically fail. We know God has the ability to kill simply by the amount of people he strikes down and kills in the bible, a whole world full of people and animals if you believe the story of Noah. we obviously inherited this trait from him so why punish us for what he gave us. Although I do believe some peoples crimes are so horrendous they deserve punishment. But if they have received punishment in life, do they also need to be punished in death. There is no way anyone will convince me ordinary people like my friends and neighbours have done anything requiring a saviour to protect them from punishment. Anyone who says there is a just God that requires this I would tell to question the morality of their God. Simply saying that because its God he is above question doesn't satisfy me. I cannot believe in and certainly not worship a God with morals I don't agree with.
Similar to how a parent watches a baby walk. The parent may not be holding its hand, but it sure as hell is watching it closely.
There is a big difference in watching a baby walk, keep falling over and get back up. There is a reason the parents watch closely. If it was walking near the edge of a cliff for instance it wouldn't just watch closely as it toppled off the edge, it would intervene and stop it from falling.
Some things happen that are more serious than others and cause permanent damage, physically and emotionally. Some things wreck lives. To say God was watching closely is pathetic. What happened can't be undone. God can watch as I walk away from him to people who care enough to actually do do something.
You are right about people needing to be loved. I need to be around people who I feel love and accept me, where I can find friendship and be a useful part of a community that I trust. Where my passions are encouraged to grow and inspire me to blossom spiritually, this will feed my soul inwardly, producing goodness outwardly to share with others. I need this and think I may have found it.
No offence but my experience of church and Christians was cold and uncaring. Any passing interest in me was not from caring for me as a person but rather in obedience to their God. When they looked at me they didn't see a person, but a possible good deed to chalk up and add to their score. I deserve more than that and I have more than that to give and I went in search of people who would recognise that and have found them. I want to be busy, not only growing myself as a person and reaching my full potential, but helping others to feel loved and to do the same. Not because God or anyone has told me to, but because deep down my heart wants to. My heart cares about people and wants them to know they are valuable and loved.
I have realised I can never be a Christian, not only do I question the existence of God but I care about people too much. People are here and now, they are real. I'm loyal to those who are good to me. I can never toss this aside at the whim of a God simply because he is God. Love, respect, trust and loyalty are deserved not demanded.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be wrestling with a few assumptions:
ReplyDelete"I want to be busy, not only growing myself as a person and reaching my full potential, but helping others to feel loved and to do the same. Not because God or anyone has told me to, but because deep down my heart wants to. My heart cares about people and wants them to know they are valuable and loved.
I have realised I can never be a Christian, not only do I question the existence of God but I care about people too much."
Would it be fair to say you believe Christians only 'love' because God tells them to? If so, that certainly isn't my experience of Christianity and God, nor my friends and those around me. I find the closer I am with God, in turn the more I feel for people. It's no tick-list, or mandatory good-deed - I care and love from genuine compassion and friendship. I want to listen to their problems 'cause I take interest in the small things that upset them, the reasons they do what they do - the heart behind the person. 'Cause knowing them is what I desire. They in turn do the same for me. Before you know it you have a community - one that's willing to tackle the real people and their very real problems.
I know you've had it hard with some churches, but not all are the same. Nor are the people in them. The church you talk about sounds foreign to me. It's not my experience of God or the people I've met.
You also mention suffering at large. Sam's written a few articles on this very blog about that subject:
http://dontignoretheelephant.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/some-popular-ideas-about-suffering.html
Well, your experience sounds very different to mine. The church I went to said a lot of similar things to you and prized themselves for caring about community but when I told them I no longer believed in God, the pastor just said "you win some, you loose some." Another staff member just said, that's ok, good luck and goodbye. A leader who lived quite close to me liked to tell of how great she was at befriending her neighbours and spending time with them so she could introduce them to Jesus. She knew I was struggling and feeling alone at church and with my personal problems but although she said she cared about me because Jesus cares, she didn't befriend me. I did speak to a couple of members of staff but I was just part of the job. Church was only ever the Sunday service, home group, courses that mostly involved watching a DVD. I volunteered a bit but that was always straight down to business, no chatting and getting to know people. There was no intimacy, no warmth, no friendship. I'm the sort of person that needs that. I'm the sort of person that listens to my friends when they have a problem. I'm the one the call and want to get together with when things go wrong with their life because of that. I'm the sort of person people turn to for advice because I'm interested in them as people and care about them and will do my best to help if I can. I was part of a home group at the church for six months and got to know hardly anything about any of them, not even the basics such as we're they lived, what did they do for a living, were they married, did they have kids? They were only interested in bible study not people. If any of them cared they would have asked why didn't I believe in God anymore, someone would have noticed I'd left and perhaps contacted me to find out why. Someone would have contacted me or knocked on my door when I was Ill and had problems to see if there was anything they could do to help.
ReplyDeleteNo one cared.
That's ok, I don't care about them anymore, it took a while to accept and move on. At first it was difficult. When a church talks about the love of God and acceptance, care and love for each other, you think that includes you. It hurts when you find out it doesn't .
Thanks for letting me tell my story. It's helped to remind me what I don't want or need. What I won't go back to.
Did you grow up in your church ? Have you family, friends there that are part of your life ? Perhaps that's why your experience is different to mine. There were many people at the church I went to who thought it was a wonderful place to be. They had family and friends there. Church was a big part of there life because of this. Their experience was totally different to mine. They didn't go and sit alone all the time with no one to talk to.
Have a look around your church, go to all the services and see if there are people there alone. Are they often there alone. What does anyone know about these people. Who are their friends at church. Would anyone know if they were sick, would anyone notice if they stopped going. Would anyone knock on their door to find out why.
ReplyDeleteI went to the church every week for over two years. I have no contact whatsoever with anyone from there. They were not sociable people. They were not interested in making friends, it was all strictly business in for the kingdom of God. I was just part of the job.
I also found out from experience that when I was down and desperate in life. And I mean seriously desperate, there was no God, I was alone. That's why I'm so passionate about helping others when they are desperate and feeling alone and in need of companionship and encouragement. I won't disappoint people by giving them false hope though. I can't tell people there is a God that will help them and will be with them because I don't believe there is.
ReplyDeleteIf God is so caring, loving and all knowing then why didn't he know what to do to help me. If he is all knowing he must have known that leaving me to struggle alone would only convince me there is no God and that I would stop telling believing and telling people there is a loving God that watches over us who care and answers prayers. I will never pray again. No point, there is no one to hear.
Thanks for hearing me out. All the other groups didn't want to hear and just deleted my comments. The church didn't like it either when is said I thought they could be more friendly. I just got told I was being negative and that people's lives were to full and to busy to make way for newcomers and I should accept that.
ReplyDeleteI just wanted my story to be listened to. Having it deleted and ignored just seemed to reinforce that Christians didn't care about people like me. That just made me more determined to find someone who who wanted to hear.
I won't trouble you people anymore, rehashing all this isn't good for me, it holds me in a place that's not good for me to be. I need to let go and move away from it all so I won't be back. Church and Christianity isn't good for my health. To many bad memories that depress me.
I'm off to my meditation group tomorrow. That lifts my spirits, I like the positive encouragement I get from the people and the friends I've made there. Not like church at all. People there have time for each other.
Thanks again for taking the time to read and respond
Bye :)
It would take a pretty huge miracle for me to ever believe in and trust God again and and an even bigger miracle to ever go near any sort of Christian group, organisation church or even talk to Christian people. I avoid them like the plague. I won't even donate through Christian organisations anymore as I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking God has anything to do with any help they receive through me.
ReplyDeleteI think it's pretty safe to say that miracle ain't gonna happen.
Someone would have to care enough to pray for that to happen. These days I hate everything God stands for so it sure as hell ain't gonna be me.
ReplyDeleteI know from experience that if your praying or meditating on someone else's behalf you have to be able to know, feel and understand what's going on inside them. No Christian has knows me well enough or cares to know me well enough to do that and I'm no longer willing to allow that to happen. Time ran out. You can only keep trying for so long. There comes a time when a person has to say enough is enough. I already reached my limit.
By the way, I never caught your name.
ReplyDeleteThis is getting interesting. Waiting on the outcome.
ReplyDeleteI presume you will get people praying for this lost sheep. Wouldn't be fulfilling your duty as a Christian if you didn't. Interested to hear if prayers work r not as the case may be.
I'm not a social experiment or the fat lady in a freak show to be watched and pointed at. Anyway, prayers don't work,there is no God.
ReplyDeleteJust as well you think that because no one would pray for you anyway. Nothing's going to happen.
ReplyDelete